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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:15 pm 
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It is an emotional issue that you can't win by logic. Gun violence is a drop in the death bucket, but they trigger a huge emotional response.

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Thanks TimD.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Matt Z wrote:
"I'm not a history buff.
But I imagine if owning almost any gun becomes illegal in the US, it won't be passed forcefully. It will come with large populous support." - Oscar_Actuary

I'm much more concerned about the gradual loss of gun rights. If the government can ban an entire class of firearms on the premiss that no one really needs them, then what's next? Is it unreasonable to expect more gun bans? Ammo bans? Licencing? Registration?


yes, it will be gradual

like using incondescent light bulbs


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:38 am 
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Matt Z wrote:
"People are going to react when politicans and children are gunned down by psychos, and the weapons that the psychos used were legally obtained. Expect to hear that if bad things happen." - Rucifer

The firearms used at Sandy Hook were stollen.

Yeah, stollen from his parents house were he lived. Parents obtained them legally...


I own a semi auto pistol. If I lived in a household where ANYONE had mental health issues, I would have been flagged and not able to obtain my id. Why would you have a gun if you know you have a mentally unstable young adult under the same roof? Just doesn't make sense to me. The US in general needs a better method of obtaining mental health records for applicants and applicants families. I had to jump through hoops in NJ to obtain a permit. You know how many other states put you through that? 1 other state...CA.

The mass killings are going to happen regardless of what platform of weapon is used as long as the media romanticizes it. I could go into a mall and create mass destruction with a chainsaw. Does this mean that if it happens they are going to start banning them too? That school shooting could have been done with 2 six shot revolvers and speed loaders. Banning semi auto rifles isn't going to solve the problem. Adding a step to the process of obtaining a legal permit will help. Need to address the real issue here. It's not the arrow it's the Indian.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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"I had to jump through hoops in NJ to obtain a permit." - xshawnxearthx

Has that really made cities like Camden any safer? You had to jump through hoops because you aquired your pistol LEGALLY, but most of the guns used in crimes are aquired ILLEGALLY through straw purchases or theft.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:04 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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I remember hearing somewhere that members of the James-Younger Gang used to carry up to 6 cap-and-ball revolvers each, plus a rifle or shotgun. That's a pretty reasonable peice of firepower with mid-1800s technology.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:59 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Mental health is a very complicated issue. I agree it's a bad idea to allow a dangerous, mentally unstable young man access to any firearm, but how do you realistically expect to prevent someone like that from aquiring weapons while allowing him to walk around free in society.

I understand it's not possible (practically or ethically) to lock up people on mere suspicion. That would be no different than imprisoning someone without a trial. However, those who've proven themselves to be a threat to others need to be treated accordingly.

Also, where do you draw the line? For example, I don't think the government can deny the rights of everyone who's ever seen a therapist for depression. If anything, this would just discourage people from seeking help.

Finally, people have a right to privacy.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Matt Z wrote:
"I had to jump through hoops in NJ to obtain a permit." - xshawnxearthx

Has that really made cities like Camden any safer? You had to jump through hoops because you aquired your pistol LEGALLY, but most of the guns used in crimes are aquired ILLEGALLY through straw purchases or theft.


Oh, I'm not saying that criminals won't be able to illegally obtain a gun. That's why a ban on assault rifles, or weapons in general won't do $h1t because there will still be that criminal element out there with easy access to it. Camden just needs to burn to the ground, but that's a whole other thread and subject.

Matt Z wrote:
Mental health is a very complicated issue. I agree it's a bad idea to allow a dangerous, mentally unstable young man access to any firearm, but how do you realistically expect to prevent someone like that from aquiring weapons while allowing him to walk around free in society.

I understand it's not possible (practically or ethically) to lock up people on mere suspicion. That would be no different than imprisoning someone without a trial. However, those who've proven themselves to be a threat to others need to be treated accordingly.

Also, where do you draw the line? For example, I don't think the government can deny the rights of everyone who's ever seen a therapist for depression. If anything, this would just discourage people from seeking help.

Finally, people have a right to privacy.
It's a very tricky subject. NJ makes you give up your HIPPA rights in order to thoroughly check your medical records as well as your standard NICS check. There is a HUGE gray area when it comes to this subject, but it needs to be brought to the table when you fill out the paperwork to buy a gun. There needs to be more than just an NICS check to make sure you were never arrested.

Funny thing is, there is always the argument of these kids being able to buy firearms illegally. That sheltered, nerdy white kid from suburbia isn't going to "the hood" to buy a gun. You aren't just going down and getting an AR off the back of a truck. That just doesn't happen. Criminals buy guns illegally, suburban white kids don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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"Funny thing is, there is always the argument of these kids being able to buy firearms illegally. That sheltered, nerdy white kid from suburbia isn't going to "the hood" to buy a gun. You aren't just going down and getting an AR off the back of a truck. That just doesn't happen. Criminals buy guns illegally, suburban white kids don't." - xshawnxearthx

Don't be too quick to assume. Illegal drug use it common among suburban teens, which suggests that at least a few of those sheltered, white kids already have criminal connections.

Even if you're right, who's to say he couldn't have stollen weapons from a neighbor, uncle, grandparent, etc.

Meanwhile, one doesn't really need an AR-15 to kill a bunch of helpless children. ... I don't think it's realistic to expect frightened 6-year-olds to take him down when he stops to reaload.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:00 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Location: Pennsylvania
Even if gun control could stop or reduce the severity of mass shootings (debatable at best), mass shootings are only a small part of the MUCH bigger problem of violence in America.

It's like focusing on shark attacks, while ignoring drownings.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:41 am 
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"That quote was evidence to my claim that there are other reasons for the 2nd amendment." - Jebus

As I have stated before, I realize this. But a big part of why this was included was for militia's. I agree that caution should be exercised before any real action taken. Sort of like the scientist who brings a foreign animal into an environment to combat a rampant other species decimating the ecosystem, but the species they bring in ends up causing more problems than the initial one.

"It is an emotional issue that you can't win by logic. Gun violence is a drop in the death bucket, but they trigger a huge emotional response." - hoosegow

Well, perhaps emotions play a significant role here for a reason. Tobacco smoke is a slow killer (in most cases) and a person is able to lead a somewhat normal life to a point with it, and perhaps even to a ripe old age. Gun violence is often senseless and cuts lives down often in their prime or even far beforehand. Although violence will never be eliminated from society, what should we do? Nothing? Should we not try to do something? If people argue against lowering the amount of guns, what is the alternative? Generally the only argument I hear is more guns. Isn't that sort of regressing as a society? Should we prepare everyday for that eventuality? I'd like to walk out my door without living in fear everyday... Although I think the issue is much more complicated than reducing guns, I think to what happens when someone is suicidal and we keep weapons to kill themselves away from them or at least try to.

"Heavy weapons aren't neccissary or practical outside of war, and they attract WAY too much unwanted attention" - Matt Z

Point taken. However, I am sure these mentally unstable people who are committing crimes (not necessarily even mass shootings) would love to make a statement with a heavy weapon rather than a normal gun, as that would really drive people bonkers (and perhaps rightfully so). Think of rocket launchers in every video game. Even normal people love to blow sh!t up.

"Most of the illegal drugs consumed in the US are smuggled in from outside the country, not made here (Meth is an obvious exception). Is it unrealistic to expect that firearms could also be smuggled into the country?" - Matt Z

Well I didn't necessarily mean homemade even in the US. A lot of foreign drugs are just grown or made rather easily as well before they are smuggled in. I don't think that negates the argument that the ban or sheer difficulty of obtaining a legally heavy weapon has made them a lot more inaccessible simply because of the price and limited availability. They could be smuggled in if the demand was great enough, yes, but still think it would be harder than drugs to do. Would an assault ban have this effect as it as for heavy weapons? I'll admit, probably not, simply because there are too many of them already.

"If a person fired a grenade launcher indoors, he would most likely kill himself with the resulting explosion." -Matt Z

Well, I meant outside when they see it :P.

"The Columbine kids used pump shotguns and pistols, while the Virginia Tech shooter used two pistols. Banning semi-auto rifles won't stop mass shootings from happening." - Matt Z

I would place anything on the level of plenty of shots before needing to reload (not six or two) on a similar level as rifles as well. Although your other statement you made about kids stopping them while reloading is somewhat valid, but at least people might have a chance in that scenario. But perhaps the answer would just to be carrying 5 loaded revolvers instead.

"The firearms used at Sandy Hook were stollen." - Matt Z

Well they were legally obtained by his mother. And then easily stolen from her. Which brings me to another point. How many people do you really trust to secure guns that own them? Judging by what I have dealt with society, and at my job, plenty of people get their cars broken into and stuff like laptops, gps's, etc stolen. The ones who unsecure their stuff (which are A LOT) are generally the only ones who have problems (I am sure this is a problem everywhere in America as well). When homes get broken into, one of the main prizes criminals look for are guns. Should we ban guns based on this premise? No, but perhaps much more severe punishments should be in order for people who allow their guns to be taken and have shown no steps or almost negligence in doing so.

"I find it tricky and interesting the conflicts between legislating goodness and sense, at the expense of Freedom" - Oscar_Actuary

What a profound statement. Seriously.

"I'm much more concerned about the gradual loss of gun rights. If the government can ban an entire class of firearms on the premiss that no one really needs them, then what's next? Is it unreasonable to expect more gun bans? Ammo bans? Licencing? Registration?" - Matt Z

Another valid point. Perhaps it would be better for once, not to let a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us. Although I will point out- after 9/11 for instance, the conservative "gun side" (which I mean in a more general sense, there are always exceptions) was perfectly willing to let acts like the patriot act into existence and other measures to combat terrorism which reduced their rights and scoffed at those arguing against it as "you must have something to hide". I have no problems with the argument against reducing our liberties, so long as they are applied equally and without bias, which they often aren't.

"Mental health is a very complicated issue. I agree it's a bad idea to allow a dangerous, mentally unstable young man access to any firearm, but how do you realistically expect to prevent someone like that from aquiring weapons while allowing him to walk around free in society.

I understand it's not possible (practically or ethically) to lock up people on mere suspicion. That would be no different than imprisoning someone without a trial. However, those who've proven themselves to be a threat to others need to be treated accordingly.

Also, where do you draw the line? For example, I don't think the government can deny the rights of everyone who's ever seen a therapist for depression. If anything, this would just discourage people from seeking help.

Finally, people have a right to privacy." - Matt Z

Very true. Can't argue against much here.

Talking to reasonable people about this (the people on this board) has given me cause to think about gun control. I think the main point I can take away from this is too not let politicians act too rashly about it. I will be trying to purchase a gun for the household in the near future (not just because of this conversation, but rather the direction things seem to be going as a society, and of course for the zombie apocolypse).


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:49 am 
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Matt Z wrote:
"Funny thing is, there is always the argument of these kids being able to buy firearms illegally. That sheltered, nerdy white kid from suburbia isn't going to "the hood" to buy a gun. You aren't just going down and getting an AR off the back of a truck. That just doesn't happen. Criminals buy guns illegally, suburban white kids don't." - xshawnxearthx

Don't be too quick to assume. Illegal drug use it common among suburban teens, which suggests that at least a few of those sheltered, white kids already have criminal connections.

Even if you're right, who's to say he couldn't have stollen weapons from a neighbor, uncle, grandparent, etc.

Meanwhile, one doesn't really need an AR-15 to kill a bunch of helpless children. ... I don't think it's realistic to expect frightened 6-year-olds to take him down when he stops to reaload.

I was once a teen who bought drugs. The only "criminal connections" I had were other white kids who liked to smoke pot. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it happens a lot less than it's made out. It isn't like buying weed where there is a guy standing out on the corner with a pocket full of guns for sale. You have to really know people. I know shady people, and it would still be difficult.

Guns aren't the problem, nor are the violent video games or dark music. IMHO, there is two problems. Lack of a mental health system designed to help those who need it, and the media romanticizing this whole thing. The next time there is a shooting at a school, it's going to be much worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:41 pm 
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"Although violence will never be eliminated from society, what should we do? Nothing? Should we not try to do something? If people argue against lowering the amount of guns, what is the alternative? Generally the only argument I hear is more guns." - Rucifer

How about hiring more police? Increasing enforcement of existing laws? Improving mental health services?

We could also provide better weapons and training for the police. For example, some departments have a tactical rifle (usually an AR-15) in every patrol vehicle. This allows officers to respond quickly to major incidents, since they don't have to wait SWAT teams to arrive.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:47 pm 
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"Isn't that sort of regressing as a society? Should we prepare everyday for that eventuality? I'd like to walk out my door without living in fear everyday." - Rucifer

I think there's a difference between wanting to be prepared and living in fear. Personally, I'd rather have a gun and not need it than need one and not have it. However, if you'de rather rely on the kindness of strangers, that's your business.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:59 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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"I would place anything on the level of plenty of shots before needing to reload (not six or two) on a similar level as rifles as well. Although your other statement you made about kids stopping them while reloading is somewhat valid, but at least people might have a chance in that scenario. But perhaps the answer would just to be carrying 5 loaded revolvers instead." - Rucifer

Would you expect the police to go back to using revolvers? Wouldn't that put them at a disadvantage against heavily armed criminals? ... If so, then wouldn't a civilian be at the same disadvantage trying to defend himself/herself against the same criminals with only a revolver or double-barrel shotgun?


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:25 pm 
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By the way, I happen to like revolvers. They actually have some advantages over semi-auto pistols (reliability for example), and aren't neccissarily a bad choice for concealed carry or home defense. However, they also have limitations (small capacity, slower reload) and may not be the best choice for everyone or every situation.


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