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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:21 pm 
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Hi all,

I am trying to lose weight and build up some muscle! For the record, I weigh around 280lbs with very little muscle. Of course, the main goal is to get the fat off, but I also want to build up some muscle. I made myself a program that I think is ok, but could be improved. Here is what my day currently looks like:

09:00 Wake up

09:30 Breakfast - usually a bowl of muesli or oatmeal.

13:00 Small snack in preparation for the workout. Rye crisp-breads for example.

15:00 Workout (Always cardio + some low volume weight training 2-3 days per week)

16:00 Shower followed by a Slim Fast shake.

21:00 Dinner - Chicken/Salads/Baked Potato/Pasta/Fish/Beans etc.

01:00 Sleep



So, I have 4 meals per day and try to space them out. The main question is, should I be having the shake after exercising? I mean what is optimum? Should I have the 'Dinner' type meal earlier in the day? I read on ExRx that one should eat carbohydrates after a workout, but I thought this may apply mostly to muscle-building programs, rather than weight loss. I want to avoid eating too close to when I will sleep, but at the same time I don't want to be hungry when I go to bed as this usually results in waking up with a headache.

I lost 11lbs after doing this for 7 days, but it's always easy to lose weight at the start I think. I am now into week two, and I'm expecting a much smaller weight loss once my body adjusts. Also, as I build muscle, I'm aware that the loss of fat may not show up on the scales. I just want to make sure I eat at the most beneficial times. If you guys can offer any advice, or improvements to my schedule I'd be really grateful. :)

Thanks!


Martin



P.S. I'm not on a 'Slimfast' diet. I just wanted 4 meals per day, and one of their shakes seemed like a fast, easy to prepare meal which is also quite nutritious!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:23 pm 
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Well, for one thing, your diet is way too high in refined and starchy carbs, and I don't see too much mention of fruits and veg. 3 places I'm going to point you to, and they include timeing.
1. Right here on this site, go to the nutrion section, great breakdown.
2. A good overview,
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nut ... habits.htm
3. More specifics on what
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nut ... ting_2.htm
Tim


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:34 am 
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Tim, in reference to his post on the General Board, Martin is a pretty big guy at 280. Would you agree that, from what he posted, he might not be eating enough and his diet will be detrimental in the long run?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:42 am 
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Hoosegow, although he didn't give amounts, it's quite possible he isn't. I was addresing mainly his choices. Not enough protein (at least from what he listed). I gave him those links as they give a good breakdown, and also recommend more meals than what he's doing.
Tim


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:31 am 
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hoosegow wrote:
Tim, in reference to his post on the General Board, Martin is a pretty big guy at 280. Would you agree that, from what he posted, he might not be eating enough and his diet will be detrimental in the long run?


Yes. That is not enough calories, regarless of the size of the individual.

It the equivalent to going on long trip in your car and not putting enough gas in your tank. You not going to get to you destination.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:43 am 
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Quote:
The main question is, should I be having the shake after exercising? I mean what is optimum? ... I read on ExRx that one should eat carbohydrates after a workout, but I thought this may apply mostly to muscle-building programs, rather than weight loss.


The reason for the carbs after exercise is to replace the glycogen in your muscles and prevent your body from using the protein in your muscles for fuel. Even if you are not on a muscle-building program you must do this to prevent muscle atrophy.

There are debates on the proportions of carbs and protiens to have in your drink but most recommendations are in the range of 20-60 grams of carbs and 15-30 grams of protien after your workout. The carbs should be high GI and the protein should be whey so they act fast. A cheap and easy source is milk. 500 ml white milk has 24 g carbs and 18 g protein. Some recommend chocolate milk for it's higher carbs and some like the taste better. You should have your drink within an hour of finishing your workout.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:46 am 
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For most overweight people insulin function is impaired and does not work in the usual way you describe. They should be able to loose fat without loosing muscle by just lifting heavy and eating a lot of protein. It's the calorie cutting and all the cardio that eat away at the muscle so badly.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:27 pm 
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I definately agree with Ironman that you should lift heavy, and I'm not by any means 100% knowledgeable about exercise physiology, specifically regarding the difference in insulin regulation between overweight folks and the active individual, but I would expand on Ironman's comment by telling you not just to eat lots of protein, but to eat the right amount of protein, and high-quality complete proteins. Eating every two hours is the key. You don't need to eat a meal, even something as simple as an apple will work for you. Start with your breakfast at the time you mentioned, something high in protein with a few carbs. Too many carbs in the morning will act like a sugar high...You'll have lots of energy early on, then it will drop dramatically later in the day. The higher protein count in the morning will help to keep your energy throughout the day. Then something small two hours later, a small balanced lunch two hours after that, a small snack two hours after lunch, maybe something small an hour before you lift, pure protein within an hour after lifting, and try not to eat anything too much later, depending on when you turn in.

Eggs are probably the highest quality protein you can get, and the egg whites contain most of the protein with almost none of the cholesterol and other B.S. Your body uses carbs for the first twenty minutes, as a general rule of thumb, of a moderate to high intensity workout for energy. After that, it uses your fats, what they call lipids, and your proteins for energy. So basically, work out for longer than twenty minutes if you want to start burning fats. This could mean that you use a 20 minute cardio program for a warm-up before you lift, which should work great. You should burn between 500-600 calories in an hour lifting, and then it continues to burn calories for a couple hours after you get done. Calories are essentially heat, so the more muscle you have, the more heat you generate and use, and the more calories you burn. When you lift, your muscles heat up and as long as they stay hot your burning some calories.

You want to eat as I've said, but watch going too high in any one thing...protein, carbs, fat, whatever. Even protein, if not used, will be stored as fat. Try to eat a lot to keep your metablolism high and your body processing muscle, but use as much of the nutrients as your can through exercise. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you, it's simple once you understand, but it's a lot of information and hard to simplify for explanation. I used to have about 31% bodyfat and I weighed roughly 265, now I'm about 205 and between 9 and 10 % bodyfat, so I've been where you are, granted age does make a difference, as I'm only 21 now. You'll also find out what works for you, based on your body and what you want for yourself, but I started lifting heavy first to get a good foundation and then worried about cutting down the fat after that. You'll probably find that if you start by lifting heavy first to gain muscle, your body will automatically start getting rid of the extra fat. There will come a point when you will have to try to get rid of the last 15 or 20 lbs of bodyfat, depending on what you want, but once you get to that point your body will be ready and it will just take small, educated changes in diet, exercise, whatever. Hope it goes well and you find that you enjoy lifting.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:17 pm 
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Ironman

I don't know much about going from obese to slim as I've never been obese so I tend to skip steps that I consider obvious. I have improved my body composition and fitness over the last few years and have learned a few things though.

It is clear to me that in order to lose weight there are certain things that are clear to me and I assumed were already understood here.

Diet and Exercise combined are better than either alone.

Calorie intake should be slightly lower than expenitures for weight loss and slightly higher for weight gain. extremes should be avoided.

Exercise:
Weight resistance training is better than cardio.
Higher intensity is better than low intensity.
Long duration training is counter productive.

Diet:
Quality matters.
Fats should be balanced, especialy Omega 3/6 balance.
Carbs should be mostly vegetables, preferably green and leafy.
Protein should be largely from a variety of meat sources.
Ratio of macronurtients should be balanced.
Meals should be small and frequent.

Assuming all of the above basic conditions are met, then questions of supplements, post workout nutrition, etc could be addressed. It's the 80% solution that I assumed that most people have figured out that is the missing ingrediant in this case. I guess I jumped the gun.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:23 pm 
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Neither could I stuward, but that's because I have never been catagorized as slim :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:39 pm 
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Wow - So much advice here already!!

Tim, you are right, I need to get a better balance, but I also didn't provide good enough information at the start. I am eating more vegetables that I mentioed at 'dinner' time, but admittedly very little fruit. I will do an overhaul of the diet to include more of these and some extra protein as mentioned by halfbreed. The good news is that I work from home, so I am able to eat whenever I want. Ok, that's how I got so fat(!), but it does mean that I have the freedom of constructing the day as I wish. I can say that I haven't felt hungry at any time, and I'm drinking plenty of water, so I think the changes need to come in the balance rather than in quantity.

When I originally put up the post, I was mostly wondering which meals should be eaten when, in relation to my workout and sleep pattern. This slimfast shake says 15g of protein per shake, but is this as good as the proteins you get from eggs/meat? Surprisingly, it also contains 26g of carbs (24g of that is sugar). That seems a little high for a shake that calls itself slim!?

Halfbreed has a good point with building muscle first as, in theory, with more muscle I should burn more calories (aiding the fat loss). Anyone disagree with this? My approximate workout time is about 10mins of stretching and getting the blood pumping, followed by 20-25mins cardio, then more stretching followed by 10-15mins weight training. However, I have a post up in the general section that should lead to a slightly longer weight session.

Ok, I'm going to construct a balanced diet using Tim's recommended places. The only thing I need to get right is the timing of the meals. i.e. It's probably better to consume any fats early in the day so you have time to work them off. So, what kind of foods are best for eating at the end of the day? Should I lower my protein intake on the days I am not using weights? What are your opinions on the slimfast shake? How soon before sleeping do you guys take your last meal?

Thanks a lot everyone!


Martin


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:23 pm 
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You're on the right track with lifting weights and changing your diet. Extra muscle will require more calories, so you'll burn more even at rest.

One thing you should do now is take some body measurements and get a good body composition test. It'll suck if you're very overweight, but it will provide a fantastic tool for tracking your progress. I got a Tanita body fat scale, which worked well for me, but a caliper test by a trainer at a gym is supposed to be more accurate. You might be able to find a gym where you can get this done, or ask at a local university - sometimes they offer this to the public for a fee. There is also a body circumference method used by the US military, but my search skills are failing me at the moment.

Slimfast sure has a lot of sugar, doesn't it? I prefer to make my own shakes. I mix whey protein, "rich milk" (Japan's answer to half-and-half), a frozen banana, 100% cocoa powder, and occasionally some other ingredients (strawberries, plain yogurt, etc.) along with water and ice cubes. Makes a nice shake, and the only sugars in there are the ones I know I put in - the banana and the milk. I prefer that to most "diet" shakes which often have lots of sugar and other sweeteners.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:27 pm 
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I have gone from obese to fairly lean. Although I still have just a bit more to go.

I was talking mostly about the post workout simple carbs not being a good idea for the obese. They don't need it to put on muscle or prevent loss, and it wouldn't get shuttled to the muscle because of impaired insulin function. Not to mention they most likely already have high insulin levels are getting plenty of anabolic effect, and actually need to get those chronically high levels down.

As far as calories, it is the calories of energy in your blood glucose which needs to be less then the total energy expenditure of all cellular function. Which is why weights and HIIT are better then slow cardio and why cutting carbs works and eating the right carbs works. Otherwise we could all jog on the treadmill and eat 1500 caolries of doughnuts to lose weight.

As for fats, you do want to get your essentials. Other then that I don't give fat a second thought. It just fills out my energy needs. So I eat very high fat while cutting because of the low carbs. Then I eat a more moderate amount of fat while bulking because of the higher carb intake.

Carbs are kind of an individual thing. You just have to know how it effects you. Some people do fine on higher carb diets and other people get fat just watching a Subway commercial. But generally manipulating carb intake is the main way to switch between gaining and loosing.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:16 am 
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Quote:
I was talking mostly about the post workout simple carbs not being a good idea for the obese. They don't need it to put on muscle or prevent loss, and it wouldn't get shuttled to the muscle because of impaired insulin function. Not to mention they most likely already have high insulin levels are getting plenty of anabolic effect, and actually need to get those chronically high levels down.


Obese individuals need to ingest some type of simple carbohydrate after a workout. Muscle glycogen is depleted in their muscle, just like everyone else.

Research shows that one of the keys to recovery is to replenish muscle glycogen in the muscle. If that is not taken care of, the individual takes longer to reovery.

Timing is EVERYTHING

As Jay Robb (nutritionist) stated, "Insulin is a fat maker." When insulin levels are high, fat is being stored on the body.

The EXCEPTION TO THE RULE is in the post workout phase. At this time, the body is poised to shuttle nutrients to the muscle cell...EVEN WITH OBESE individuals.

Also, working out for obese individuals increases the sensitivity to insulin...meaning they are LESS RESISTANT.

Obese individuals DO NEED to put on muscle and prevent muscle loss. One of the problems is the obese individuals have a greater ratio of fat to muscle.

What these individuals want to do is replace fat with muslce. Increasing muscle mass increases you metabolism. It like putting a bigger engine in your car that burns more gas.

An obese individual DOES want to prevent muscle loss, just as anyone else does.

To find out for sure what you insulin live is, get a glucometer and take and test yourself.

Conclusion

The time to spike insulin levels, even for obese individuals is after a workout. This helps replenish the muslce, prevents muscle loss, and builds muscle.

Some experimentation is necessary in finding what works best for you. The Performance Zone is an excellent book on what to ingest prior,during and after a workout.

A used copy can be purchased at amazone.com It provides a guideline based on research by Dr John Ivy.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:19 am 
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The reason for the carbs after exercise is to replace the glycogen in your muscles and prevent your body from using the protein in your muscles for fuel. Even if you are not on a muscle-building program you must do this to prevent muscle atrophy.


Excellent point. This applies to obese individuals as well.

Kenny Croxdale

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