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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:02 am 
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Summary:
- Started 8 months ago 16 stone (102)
- Did a split - did some low carb, got reasonable gains and went from 20% bf to 16.5% bf.
- Hit a couple of walls, Bench press is pathetic but my squats are ok - decided routine needed changing anyway so went for Strong lifts.
- now 2 months into strong lifts - my goal being to get to 1.5 squat/Dead and x1 bench, im guessing press would be around 0.75% as S-lifts suggests - so im going to go back up to somewhere between 15.5(99)and 16 stone(..102)

So, my question is, which seemed simple in my head but is a little difficult to articulate, should I stay under 20% body fat whilst reaching my original weight (16st/102kg) - with the logic that I now have more muscle therefore at the same as my original weight, my fat should be lower than before the added muscle.... right?

The thing is - I can already see my belly come out after going 14.5>15, but I also conceed that my diet is at best, "cleaner" than an average persons, at worst, involving too many sugars and carbs. I'd love to proceed as I am diet wise, but worry that measuring my weight wont really tell me much - I just *presume* that weight gain, while active in the gym and lifiting progressivley heavier, will also net reasonable muscle gain i.e. it will be nearly impossible for me to gain 1.5 stone without a reasonable ratio of that being muscle.

Any warning lights in the above? Any advice towards fat gains, I know Steward would have me drop the 4 pints of milk im having and go for a lower carb approach (and I have listened mate :) I just would prefer the easier route if I still achieve my goals, will be more strict if I do not)

Too add even more fluff to my post :) - Im not really bothered about putting fat on at the moment, the goal is strength, I just wouldn't want to go way overboard with fat gains, because it can obviously be done better.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:17 pm 
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don't be a fatty


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:54 pm 
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It's pretty hard to figure out what goal should be the most important. I was in a similar situation after dieting down. Although I wanted to put more muscle on after, I didn't want any fat gain. But then I just said to myself, if I'm trying to limit fat gain, I'm also gonna be limiting muscle gain, they're just two opposite things. My conclusion is this...

I'm young, I have the best testosterone levels I'm ever going to have, I'm a full time student (bum) so at such a perfect time to put on a ridiculous amount of muscle why limit myself? Obviously I'm not gonna be eating KFC at like 2am (too often) and I occassionally have a no carb day, but other than that I try to eat carbs only for breakfast and pre/post workout on training days. Non training days I concentrate on getting the majority of my calories from fat/protein, but I'm nowhere near as strict as my <30g while dieting.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:42 pm 
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Well, me being skinny, I have no fear of fat, but want to stay healthy(general).

But I decided to just enjoy my carbs while I still can, once the fat starts to get a little too much i'll just go low carb and cycle on and off for strength gains.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:28 pm 
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Also...

RobertB wrote:
So, my question is, which seemed simple in my head but is a little difficult to articulate, should I stay under 20% body fat whilst reaching my original weight (16st/102kg) - with the logic that I now have more muscle therefore at the same as my original weight, my fat should be lower than before the added muscle.... right?


Just out of curiosity, why not try to *maintain* your weight?

You can lose fat and gain muscle while staying the same weight and that's probably easier to do then trying to go all extreme in one direction and then the other.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:13 am 
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Well because its gunna leave me thinking "could I get more strength gaining weight" - As I rambled on, I just want to limit crazy fat gain, Im ok with a belly for 3 months if I add 20% to my big lifts.

It's all about my inexperience really - I truly do not know how much weight gain will bennefit my strength - all I know is, pre full body x3 a week my bench stalled horribly low, my overhead press wasnt too good and I was generally levelling out way too early - I blame this partially on dropping 20lbs aprox when really as a newbie I should really have just got my foundation before dropping 20-22lbs.

So I'm worried more about strength gains than fat - but I want to know if theres a risk of piling on 99% fat and 1% muscle (exaggeration to clarify ofc)

In direct response to "why don't you just try to maintain your weight" - well, because I believe that will limit my strength gains, I want to keep this upward ramp going as long as possible before stalling and I don't think staying the same weight will bennefit this target - not without fine tuning my diet which to be honest I CBA with at the moment - I'm eating clean and getting decent balance nutrients/veg/fruit/good quality fats.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:11 am 
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If you're getting the majority of your calories from fat and protein and use carbs as a sort of aid for exercise or to get the calories in then you really shouldn't have to worry about crazy fat gain if you're hitting it hard in the gym.

I find it really hard to bulk on lowish carbs so on training days I do have a bit of a carb binge just to get the calories in.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:27 am 
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Robert, you shouldn't worry about gaining only fat. I highly doubt that you will only pack on only fat, if you dont mind a gut, then GoW Mad!

yes the W stands for whole. lol


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:34 am 
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1. Find someone you trust to caliper you for bodyfat percentage and just do it. Or buy some on your own and teach a friend or training partner. I'm just mindboggled that people here who are so scientific about muscle movements are so resistive to the well-established methods of measurement of bodyfat. It's NOT HARD. You can get repeatable numbers (especially if you have same person do the pinches, track the sknfold numbers themselves...i.e trend them.) I had this done for me in the 80z for wrestling and gymnastics, by my high school trainer. It's not rocket science.

2. There are some good articles by Alan Aragon and Lyle McDonald on natural gains. Numbers like 1-2 pounds per month of muscle (less for intermediate and advanced lifters) get tossed around. Just figure out your maintenance calorie needs. And then add 125-250 calories per day to that number. Track your weight and allow yourself to go up at 1-2 # per month. Or if you think "adding fat while adding muscle" will help, then make some calculation. For instance, if you feel fine adding one for one, double the previous calculated numbers.

3. Do what Ian King advocates and experiment on yourself. Try keeping weight fixed and just getting stronger.* Try adding 1-2 pounds per month. Try adding 2-4 pounds per month. See which one gives you higher strength gains. IOW track which one gives you faster rates of adding pounds to the bar. (This will require that you are journaling, but should be anyhow.)

4. I'm trying to remember, but are you the guy who said you wanted to get "freaky ripped"? Either you're uncertain of your goals or your meaning of freaky ripped and mine are different.


*My hunch is if you are much over 10%, that this will work fine. And is kind of the easiest to calculate and watch. Just get bf% done occasionally. If you start doubtint the bf% numbers, post pictures. Camera doesn't lie. Mirror can lie. Camera, and public posted pictures, don't...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:38 am 
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Ricky wrote:
Also...

RobertB wrote:
So, my question is, which seemed simple in my head but is a little difficult to articulate, should I stay under 20% body fat whilst reaching my original weight (16st/102kg) - with the logic that I now have more muscle therefore at the same as my original weight, my fat should be lower than before the added muscle.... right?


Just out of curiosity, why not try to *maintain* your weight?

You can lose fat and gain muscle while staying the same weight and that's probably easier to do then trying to go all extreme in one direction and then the other.


Agree. Especially given the OP said earlier (I think, if I have right guy) that appearance of freaky ripped was his main objective. It is an optical illusion, but taking fat off makes muslces look bigger.

And if the OP is above 10%, he has plenty for function. And natural rate of muscle gain is very slow. So the fat loss (displacement) would be very slow as well. Much less than when dieting.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:26 am 
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I think people can get far too scientific about the bodyfat thing....

Try asking yourself the following question,

Am I as lean as I would like to be?

If yes, then your body fat level is fine. If no, then you need to lose some fat.

In terms of what you're trying to do, i've been there, and was there for a while......

Keeping your calories and weight the same will deffinitly lead to your lifts stalling..eventually... There's a bit of an "art" to keeping your weight down and getting stronger (beginners excluded). It basically involves lifting heavy, but not too much volume, whilst not going completely nuts with food, but not being too strict, either. When your BF levels get to a point that bother you then, take 4 weeks and get rid of it whilst KEEPING your strength, or atleast as much as possible.

It's really down to you. If your goal is to hit certain numbers in certain lifts, then get after it.

Just monitor it. Your first check point should be improving in the gym. You need to eat enough to support performance. If you're at this point already, then by all means, eat less crap and more good food and see what happens to your numbers or, simly monitor how you feel. If you're in tthe midst of your numbers goin up and, you suddenly drop calories below what you need then you feel it straight away. You'll feel like crap. What I'm saying is, base it all on your numbers. You want them going up, first and foremost (because your goal is strength). At that point, tweak things if you feel you need to (based on how fat you are).

I would get out of the "how much weight gain will benefit my strength" thought process, too. Start thinking, "how much more do I need to eat to get stronger!".

Shortened version, I guess is: Monitor your numbers, and monitor how fat you get (with your eyes - you're not trying to enter a BB contest!). Get the numbers moving in the right direction first and foremost, then worry about what you're eating... That's how I do it, anyway.

KPj


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:00 pm 
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ApolytonGP wrote:
Ricky wrote:
Also...

RobertB wrote:
So, my question is, which seemed simple in my head but is a little difficult to articulate, should I stay under 20% body fat whilst reaching my original weight (16st/102kg) - with the logic that I now have more muscle therefore at the same as my original weight, my fat should be lower than before the added muscle.... right?


Just out of curiosity, why not try to *maintain* your weight?

You can lose fat and gain muscle while staying the same weight and that's probably easier to do then trying to go all extreme in one direction and then the other.


Agree. Especially given the OP said earlier (I think, if I have right guy) that appearance of freaky ripped was his main objective. It is an optical illusion, but taking fat off makes muslces look bigger.

And if the OP is above 10%, he has plenty for function. And natural rate of muscle gain is very slow. So the fat loss (displacement) would be very slow as well. Much less than when dieting.


No that isn't me but I will let you off because that was "robertscott" :) I am not at a stage where being sub 10% bf would look good :) ok maybe but not quite right.

Ok thanks guys - and yea I know what you mean about not focusing on weight to directly correlate with strength kpj its just as I kinda say, as someone who doesn't know where my limitations are (especially as a relative newbie and gains are still "easy") I want to ensure a static/reduced weight isn't acting as a ceiling to current reasonably short term goals - it could be elsewhere, it could be diet content, it could be shifting around my routine - but I'll know its very unlikely to be my weight/calories if Im gaining it 2lbs a week.

and your point about a mid-way pause is a good one. With my newbie gains I was able to do that easily, even got stronger while dropping a reasonable few lbs so I should still be new enough to pull this off without much difficulty.

And apoly I have no idea what you mean by the fat calliper thing - is it just a trigger because... I can/do get my BF measured.. so err, yea :)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:30 pm 
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My bad on the misRoberting. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:56 am 
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RobertB wrote:
I want to ensure a static/reduced weight isn't acting as a ceiling to current reasonably short term goals - it could be elsewhere, it could be diet content, it could be shifting around my routine - but I'll know its very unlikely to be my weight/calories if Im gaining it 2lbs a week.


This is like asking "how long is a piece of string"... IN one hand, I want to say that if you're numbers are going up then you're not limiting yourself. On the other hand, I want to say if you eat a lot more your numbers will go up even more :grin:

This is why Powerlifters embrace the "bloat". I've seen the effects of this myself. Me and my training partner were on the exact same program. We had a similar build - both about 5'7 - 5'8, and both around 160lbs, "with abs". My training partner started talking about getting his "bloat on" and, eventually just decided to try and eat atleast 6000 calories per day. Sometimes it went over this, depending on how much peanut butter he was eating (he would eat atleast half a jar of peanut butter when he drank a cup of tea!).

Anyway, his strength went through the roof. He was lifting considerably less than me and, in about 3 months, he was pretty much hitting the same weights as me. Sure, he was heavier, had more fat, etc, but he didn't/doesn't care. He just wanted to hit those numbers. We still didn't train any differently from each other. Only thing he changed was how much he ate. He went from a horrible 350lbs DL to an easy 420lbs DL within 3 months! (wasn't a newbie at this time) I'm pretty sure he was out squatting me, too.

That experience was an eye opener anyway. I actually think he got too strong too quickly because he ended up with all sorts of injuries (torn hamstring, hip problems, shoulder problems), all around the same time. However, it made me realise something that's kind of obvious but I had never really thought about.....

If you eat "enough" and go to the gym, you'll have a typically good work out. If you don't eat enough, and i'm sure we've all been there, then you feel/perform like crap. However, what if you eat far too much? Well, turns out, you perform even better but, there's also consequences (excess fat).

You just need to find the balance that's right for you. Again though, just make sure your numbers are actually moving in the right direction. If they're not then you don't really know what's working and what isn't.

KPj


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:24 am 
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Exactly (not that I *knew* that - I just used some logic)

To try clarify somewhat - I realise you can't say "at +10% BMI you are able to lift 5% more than at -5% BMI" - I realise its stupid to think you can say "+2% muscle gain = +1.72% lifting strength"

So what I was after, was peoples anecdotal "knowledge" of how weight gain tapers off, how much is too much, and how much fat is gained during a bloat.

But I realise it's gunna be me monitoring essentially and my own opinion of what too much fat is - I just wanted your views, like "I went 6k calories and the gains were amazing" or "despite eating +3k calories a day, all I did was get fat and didnt add much strength" etc.

As said in previous post though KPJ and somewhat apoly - just measure, if it sky rockets, tweak it, if I get to 22% and want 16%, try maintainence for a bit (8 weeks or something) and do best to retain strength gains - then go back to reasonably high calories again.

I don't want to be a WWF steroid sized wrestler, I just want my 1.5 SQ/DL - x1/1.2 bench and a heavy OHP - once I have those I'll change stuff up again and start getting more into accurate dieting. For now, Size, eating, hitting those body weight multiples is my aim for the end of this year/early feb.


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