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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:33 pm 
hi! this seems like a typical bodybuilders thing to do. on the personal trainer course i did most of the guys would eat eggs, good especially if they are free range and organic and even more so if you can afford to eat them! lots of protein and less fat in the albumin than the yolk but FOR GOODNESS SAKE....fat / adipose tissue is the building blocks that the body uses to make muscle! meat is muscle muscle is meat....i'm a converted vegan and know the difference this makes. be senseible and have a some with every meal, fatty lean whatever. look it up: adipose tissue = energy = more muscle. being scottish of course i endorse oats :0)

cranachan recipie

double cream and full cream milk cooked porrage oats, honey, fresh raspberries.....ah winter bliss!

i suppose you could put some jerky on top if you wanted!! :0)



kidkurious wrote:
Today after my workout, I had the following:

- 4 eggs (2 yolks, 4 whites)
- A Bowl of oat meal + some milk
- Some fresh watermelon

This filled me up quite well.

I'm not really into doing all those calorie calculations and protein measurements, etc, but I'm pretty sure I gave my body enough nutrients to recover and build muscle until my next meal.

What do you think?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:17 am 
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Just so you all know, there are only two (2) supplement companies in the United States regulated by the FDA.


To my knowledge, the FDA is not yet involved in regulating any supplement company.

The FDA is a bunch of Nazies.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:55 am 
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In Memoriam: TimD
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Glad to see you made it over here, Kenny


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:03 pm 
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PERFECT post workout includes..... 30-40 whey protien,50-60gms simple carbs, 5gms glutamine, 5 gms creatine, 100-200gms alpha lipoic acid, 100 mg vit c, 400 i.u., vit e, 5-10gms flax oil


While this is a good post workout drink, it CANNOT be catagorize as the "PERFECT" one.

I would rate Omega 3, like those in flaxseed oils, as being the best of all supplements. However, I question the use of flax oil as part of the post workout formula. The goal is to reload nutrients quickly back into the system. Fats slow down absorption. Thus, faxseed oil would be counter productive.

I would be interested in seeing what research indicates flaxseed oil would effeiive at enhancing a post workout beverage.


Quote:
at the very least take whey protien and simple carbs


Whey protein and simple carbs are the foundation of a good post and preworkout beverage.

Two good book on this are "Nutrient Timing" and "The Performance Zone" by Dr John Ivy. Ivy's recipe includes electorlyets, Vitamin C and E, glutamine and leucine.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:43 pm 
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flax used like that is just for people that are very prone to fat gain that are doing low carb. It's just a little extra energy. Limited application though as I said.

So in that guys example where you have both the simple carbs AND the flax it's not going to work out too well. Like you were saying it's going to slow the carb absorption which will be counter productive for the skinny guy. Then the for the fatty the carbs would just make him fatter. So it's really just that they shouldn't be together.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:41 am 
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Like you were saying it's going to slow the carb absorption which will be counter productive for the skinny guy. Then the for the fatty the carbs would just make him fatter. So it's really just that they shouldn't be together.


I have enjoyed you post. I rarely respond because I agree with the informtation you present.

However, what you have presented is not backed up by any research, to my knowledge. If you have research to sustanciate this position, I would be interested in reading it.

I would be interested in Kevin providing me his reasoning for doing so as well as some data to back up that informtation.

Also, what would you define as a "fatty."

What the research shows is that providing workout is intense enough, both amino acids and glycogen are shuttled to the muscle cell. In the post workout period, very little if any fat is deposited from the post workout beverage. There is no delineation in any research that an individual, "skinny" or "fatty" would be different.

The hormone insulin is now touted as one of the most anaboiic hormones of the body. Manipulation of insulin in the post workout phase, put the brakes on catabolism.

Spiking insulin at other times of the day, does promote fat storage. As nutrition expert Jay Robb noted, "Insulin is a fat maker and glucaton (the counter to insulin) is a fat taker. However, this rule ONLY applies to eating periods that do not fall into the pre, workout or post workout periods.

If your premise were true, I suspect that a better resolution would be to limit the grams of simple carb to the drink rather than adding something like flaxseed oit to it.

Again, I would be interested in reviewing any research you or Kevin can provide on this subject.

Thanks,

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:25 pm 
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I think you missed part of the point. The flax and the simple carbs don't go together. That was the main point. Fatties as I call them are people like me who are VERY prone to gaining fat. We also tend to have insulin resistance, therefore simple carbs can make us fat because our reaction is out of control and spikes it real high, and the process of shuttling to the muscles is a bit out of whack too. Now if I were to do a bulk with simple carbs, I might be able to make it work by taking metformin with it, other then that it's going to make me fat.

As for the research, my statement about gaining fat has only observations to directly back it up. However my other statement about insulin resistance is well known with all kinds of research out there which I am sure you have already read. So I doubt you would dispute that insulin resistance means, prone to fat gain, abnormally high spike, and problems with functions like shuttling the energy to the muscles among other things. So it is not to much of a stretch to conclude that a simple carb drink will make fatties fatter. Besides that we have all seen people pack on some fat while bulking.

As for using flax for energy, it's just a substitute for MCT oil. I do remember seeing research about MCT oil being used like that. Flax should work the same way. You're just giving the body a little fat to use. I'm sure it's not as good as carbs, but you make do.

Now we know metformin can normalize insulin response with the correct dosage. So it is possible this would allow us fatties to do the usual simple carb thing.

The skinny guy needs the simple carbs because he needs the energy and the anabolic effect of the insulin. He also has no worries of fat gain.

So it's plain whey and maybe some flax or MCT for the fatty and no simple carbs.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:32 pm 
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My understanding is that the goal of the post-workout drink is to get that insulin spike and fill those depleted muscles with nutrients and glycogen, etc. and halt catabolism, regardless of whether you tend to gain weight easily or not. Adding fat to the post-workout drink would seemingly substantially slow down the absorption of the drink's nutrients and therefore defeat its purpose.

I have a very imperfect post-workout drink, but perfection has to be weighed against many factors, so I'm willing to settle with it. I do 35g of whey protein isolate, 25g of Gatorade powder (sucrose) and 40g of dextrose powder in about 20oz. of water. That gives me a 1:2 ratio of protein to simple carbs which is a bit protein-heavy. It's also 400 calories. But it tastes good and only costs about $1 a pop. Now that I think about it I might back the protein off a bit.

Another cheap and reasonably good option I used to partake in was those 12 fl oz. cans of fat-free evaporated milk. I think they were like 300-400 calories and had a better protein to carbs ratio (like 1:3 maybe). It tastes great when chilled and doesn't require any prep and is really easy to drink. Only downsides I guess are that the sugars were in the form of lactose and I found myself kind of embarrassed buying 5 cans of evaporated milk every week... lol.

JMO,
John


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:19 am 
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I think you missed part of the point. The flax and the simple carbs don't go together. That was the main point.


That point was not made. In Kevin's post he included the flaxseed oil in his post workout beverage. Your did not state that they did not go to together.

I am familiar with insulin resistance and the role of flaxseed oil in regard to body fat storage. So, let's skip that part.

Flaxseed oil and MCTs are digested differently, as you know. Flaxseed, as you stated, is slowly digested.

MCTs are digested quickly. MCTs are a bit like carbohydrates in how quickly they are digested.

Quote:
So it's plain whey and maybe some flax or MCT for the fatty and no simple carbs.


Even the "fatty" needs some carbs in their post workout beverage. Carbs transport nutrients to the muscle cell. MCT's are noted for that.

I could understand MCTs mixed with whey and some carbs as a post workout beverage...but no carbs is not substantiated by any research.

Flaxseed oil being mixed into a post workout beverage does not make sense.

Again, I would be interested in reviewing research that goes into flaxseed oil being added to a post workout beverage.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:26 am 
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My understanding is that the goal of the post-workout drink is to get that insulin spike and fill those depleted muscles with nutrients and glycogen, etc. and halt catabolism, regardless of whether you tend to gain weight easily or not. Adding fat to the post-workout drink would seemingly substantially slow down the absorption of the drink's nutrients and therefore defeat its purpose.


Exactly!

Quote:
I have a very imperfect post-workout drink, but perfection has to be weighed against many factors,


I agree.

Again two good books on pre, workout and post workout beverages are Dr Ivy's Nutrient Timing and The Performance Zone. Their formula is backed up by scientific research.

I consider Ivy's pre, workout and post workout beverage to be a good formula. I would not call it perfect.

Perfect means that's as good as it gets and we have learned all we will ever need to know.

We are still just scratching the surface.

Kenny Croxdale

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