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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:00 pm 
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Wrong, it does not apply to most obese individuals. Many of them have some sort of insulin resistence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_resistance

Read the first paragraph and then the first paragraph under "pathophysiology".

You will see that not only will it not work properly like it would for you, they can have a serious drop in blood sugar because of it.

They have to lose some weight, get their diet sorted and exercise. Then in time their endocrine system will return to a fairly normal state and the post workout carb stratagy willl then work for them. But until they fix it, it is not going to work. That is the very definition of the problem as you can see from the article above.

How *YOU* doin?!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:51 pm 
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Ok, I'm going to construct a balanced diet using Tim's recommended places. The only thing I need to get right is the timing of the meals. i.e. It's probably better to consume any fats early in the day so you have time to work them off. So, what kind of foods are best for eating at the end of the day? Should I lower my protein intake on the days I am not using weights? What are your opinions on the slimfast shake? How soon before sleeping do you guys take your last meal?



Have fats with each meal. You don't have to work off fats. You need them to transport vitamins to your intestines for absorption. The fats and proteins lower the Glycemic Index of your meals preventing an insulin spike. Make sure you are getting lots of Omega 3, flax seed is great but fish or fish oil is the best source. Limit your Omega 6 as it competes for the same enzymes required to convert Omega 3 to DHA and EPA. This alone will help your weight loss.

Protein should be spaced out through the day, every day. Have some with each meal. Eat a variety of meat, eggs and fish.

Carbs are not a good idea late at night. The best idea for a late night snack is milk, eggs, or a protein shake. Try to get one with casein or egg protein as it acts longer than whey. Muscle is built while you sleep and on your days off.

Get rid of the slim fast. Stick with whole foods where you can or a protein powder for post workout or late night snack.

Make sure you eat frequently, every 3 hours or so. Make breakfast your biggest meal. Eat fat and protein. Get your carbs mostly from vegetables and some fruit. Limit your grains and when you do eat them make them as close unprocessed as you can. Cook your grains and eat your veg raw where possible. Eliminate all sugar from your diet.

Read the John Berardi links. They are invaluable.

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Halfbreed has a good point with building muscle first as, in theory, with more muscle I should burn more calories (aiding the fat loss). Anyone disagree with this?


Some (this site included) quote 30 to 50 calories expended per pound of muscle per day. This has been shown to be way too high. Muscle does consume much more energy than fat but the contribution to fat loss is overstated.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:26 am 
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I have to disagree. It depends on activity level, it could be as much as 50 though. It's not overstated. I can tell you that just from personal experience. I will agree that someone who is fairly sedentary doesn't use anywhere near that much though.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:45 am 
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The number I've seen recently is between 5 and 8 calories per pound of muscle. You mention activity level. IMO people who have built more muscle usually want to maintain it and will increase their activity level to do that and that may account for the difference but strictly looking and metabolic rate change, not related to activity, the 30-50 calories per pound is way to high.

Logically it doesn't make sense either. Take a look at the average strongman of heavyweight competitor in any strength sport. They all carry about 100 pounds more meat on themselves than an average person. If you consider that they have to consume more calories just to carry around the weight and the fact that they have to use extremely heavy weights to stimulate their muscles, they should all be ripped to shreds but they don't seem to have much problem holding onto a little body fat.

http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/news/cals.htm


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:37 am 
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Ironman wrote:
Wrong, it does not apply to most obese individuals. Many of them have some sort of insulin resistence.


I suspect they do have some insulin resistance problems. However, that does not mean they should avoid carbohydrates in a post workout beverage.

Obese individuals burn glycogen stores in their muscle tissue like everyone else. Obese individuals need to replenish those glycogen stores as a means of recovery, preventing muscle loss and building muscle.

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_resistance

Read the first paragraph and then the first paragraph under "pathophysiology".


You will see that not only will it not work properly like it would for you, they can have a serious drop in blood sugar because of it.


The problem with that information. It does NOT address the post workout physiology.

Exercise increases insulin sensitivity. The body, even for obese individuals, is more insulin sensitive. This allows the obese individual to manipulate insulin to shuttle nutrients to the muscle cell.

Quote:
They have to lose some weight, get their diet sorted and exercise. Then in time their endocrine system will return to a fairly normal state and the post workout carb stratagy willl then work for them. But until they fix it, it is not going to work. That is the very definition of the problem as you can see from the article above.


Weight loss as well as exercise does change the dynamics of how effective their body deals with insulin. Thus, they need to ingest some carbohydrate/protein beverage after a workout.

High intensity exercise program is the key, "high intensity muscle contraction is associated with an enhance normalization of glucose homostasis..."

The post exercise physiology of obese individuals works the same way; insulin sensitivity is improved.

Taking nothing post workout for obese individuals does not insure one will maximize recovery, prevent muscle loss or build muscle.

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How *YOU* doin?!


I am always ok...nevert too high or too low...I keep it in the middle of the road...:)

And you?

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:50 am 
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I think most agree that a post workout meal is a good thing, in either case. I heard it described a bit differently than what Kenny put it, but it's basically the same. After intense workout, the body's ability to take in and store nutrients is basically insulin independent, you don't have to go crazy and go for the insulin spike. Another point, is that it's relatively easy to top off glycogen levels (in whatever ratio you use-I realize there is an ongoing debate on that, I'm not touching it). If I were trying to lose fat, my post workout would be moderate GI, and small to moderate in size (300-400 kcal) and it should work ncely.
Tim


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:57 am 
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Quote:
High intensity exercise program is the key, "high intensity muscle contraction is associated with an enhance normalization of glucose homostasis..."


I forgot to add where I got this information.

The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 21, No. 2, pp. 330–335.

Effects of High Intensity/Low Volume and Low Intensity/High Volume Isokinetic Resistance Exercise on Postexercise Glucose Tolerance
Andrew D. Miller, Brent C. Ruby, and Steven E. Gaskill

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:22 am 
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I think 6 calories is way to low, and I've never heard anyone claim 50 to 100. The 50 figure is for the very most active people. It could be high, but muscle mass does seem to add a lot to my metabolism.

Quote:
The problem with that information. It does NOT address the post workout physiology.

Exercise increases insulin sensitivity. The body, even for obese individuals, is more insulin sensitive. This allows the obese individual to manipulate insulin to shuttle nutrients to the muscle cell.


The increase in sensitivity is a slow process. It isn't going to happen right away. When I was an obese beginner I had no problem rapidly dropping weight and building muscle at the same time with nothing but protein after the workout. I was eating a very low carb Atkins-like diet too.

Even now it's not exactly normal. I only have the post workout carbs when bulking.

The "How you doin" thing was actually just a reference to the movie Norbit.
http://www.meetnorbit.com/


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:47 pm 
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Thanks a lot to everyone for giving so much help! I've read through all the messages and all the links and I've come up with this:

09:00 Wake up
09:30 Meal 1 - Muesli or Porridge (Oatmeal) or boiled eggs & wholemeal toast
12:30 Meal 2 - Meat & Veg from list
15:30 Snack in preparation for workout - Fruit
16:15 Workout
17:15 Shower then meal incorporating high GI carbs (Jacket Potato or maybe pasta)
20:30 Meal 4 - Salad from List or tinned fish
23:00 Snack - Fruit or perhaps some cottage cheese with crispbreads (Ryvitas)
01:00 Sleep


Meat - Steak, Chicken/Turkey Breast, Salmon, Tuna
Veg - Asparagus, Green Beans, Broccoli, Cabbage, Brussels sprouts.
Salads - Lettuce/Tomato/Spinach/Carrot/Spring Onion with either prawns, eggs, chicken breast, beans mixed in.
Fruit - Apples, Oranges, Green Grapes, Pears, Cherries, Plums, Peaches

Ok, here are my questions...

Is fruit sufficient for the pre-workout snack?
Most say to eat 'immediately' after workout - is it ok to shower first (10-15mins) or does my body need the carbs as soon as possible?

The only drawback with eating so many meals is that I will be in the k-word forever! Anyone want a job as a chef? I think I will abandon the Slimfast and investigate some recipies for making my own healthier shakes as some of you guys do. Then I could make it in advance and store it in the fridge.

Feel free to point out any improvements to my menu! Some ideas for FAST snacks would be great, like the crispbreads or health shakes etc.



Martin


PS - pdellorto why is the banana frozen?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:57 am 
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Vintage79 wrote:
Is fruit sufficient for the pre-workout snack?


It might be. It isn't for me, but I'm at a much lower bodyweight than you are and I'm presumably working out harder (weight training followed by kickboxing, or grappling training preceded by bodyweight warmups, etc.) so I find I need more than a piece of fruit. I usually have fruit plus some plain yogurt with raisins added. I found that gave me energy without causing an upset stomach when I pushed it. But start with a little fruit, and work up from there if you need more energy.

Vintage79 wrote:
Most say to eat 'immediately' after workout - is it ok to shower first (10-15mins) or does my body need the carbs as soon as possible?


I've been told the sooner the better, but within 20 minutes or so is okay. I'm not sure of the science. I personally finish up at my gym, drink some water, bike home, hit the shower, and then while I'm drying off I make my shake and drink it slowly and steadily over the next 15-20 minutes. I could be wrong, I'm really going by feel and I'm not an expert on post-workout nutrition!

Vintage79 wrote:
PS - pdellorto why is the banana frozen?


A few reasons:

- storage. I can buy bunches when they're on sale, peel them and freeze them without worrying about spoilage. Wrap them in plastic wrap or stick them in a freezer bag.
- taste. Frozen bananas taste good.
- temperature. I like my shakes cold, and a frozen banana purees up nicely in the blender and imparts a really good chill! Add a small tray of ice and it's a slushee.

That's mainly it. You can use anything that will blend up - I like bananas. I've done the same with frozen berries (blueberries, raspberries) and frozen or fresh strawberries. I've done frozen mango chunks before too. But here in Japan, bananas are by far the cheapest and easiest so I use them.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:13 am 
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Thanks pdell! By the way, I bought a Sakuraba T-shirt one size too small a few years ago as an incentive to lose weight. Unfortunately it is now about 3 sizes too small, but I am finally on the right tracks at least!!


R.I.P. Pride FC


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:43 am 
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For me, a piece of fruit is more than enough, if I even do that, but people are different. Pdell's suggestion of plain yogurt with some added fruit is a good one. Plain yogurt is a pretty good mix of P/C/F. Dr Sears of the Zone highly recommends it as a snack. As to after workout meal, lots of different thinking there. I really don't worry about it, as long as I get it in within an hour afterwards. I can't eat immediately after anyway, so I shower first then think about it.
Tim


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:51 am 
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Quote:
The only drawback with eating so many meals is that I will be in the k-word forever! Anyone want a job as a chef? I think I will abandon the Slimfast and investigate some recipies for making my own healthier shakes as some of you guys do. Then I could make it in advance and store it in the fridge.


When you make up your salad, make enough for a couple of days. You can split it into containers ( a 1 litre container is about right) and refrigerate it. Since I have a large family, I usually make it fresh before dinner and take the leftovers for lunch. Leftovers are your best friend.

When chosing yogurt, be sure to get the plain yogurt. In a lot of stores it's hard to find. You'll see an 8' section of yogurt with fruit and sugar but hardly any plain. Try the natural food section if your store has one.

You should also skip the toast at breakfast. Have a peice of fruit or some berries with your eggs instead. A couple of slices of tomato is good.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:12 am 
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For yogurt, I'd recommend checking out Trader Joe's. They have Greek yogurt with active cultures there, in low-fat and (my personal favorite) full-fat versions. It's completely sugar-free. There are other "plain" yogurts but they're often filled with sugar, "plain" just meaning "no fruit." So read the label.

I'm lucky because in Japan almost all yogurt is unsweetened, it comes with a sugar pack so you can mix it to your own taste. I know for 100% certain the TJ's Greek yogurt is sugar-free and quite tasty. Take a look.

Another healthy snack you can check out are nuts - walnuts, almonds, peanuts. Raw and unsalted are probably the best, but I like roasted peanuts too. They have fat, but it's generally quite healthy and satisfying.


***

And yeah, I miss PRIDE too. I hope they put on another fight...a cage is better for fighters but the ring is much easier for the fans.

--
Peter


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:26 am 
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Stuward's got the right idea. The last thing I want to do is be in the k-word all the time. What I do is simpe, I like cold veg salads, so I'll make up about 2-3 different types that will hold in the refrig for a couple of days, and use them in tandem. One is simple, I call it the "k-word sink". I'll go to the pantry, see what I have, throw it all into a bowl. One of my favorites is a can of italian green beans, a can of shelley beans, some blanched or canned carrot slices, some garbonzo (chick peas), chopped olives and tomatoes. Dress it w/ some olive oil and lemon jhuice. Another might be to buy a 2lb bad of frozen California mix (brocolli, cauliflour, sliced carrots), coo it slightly, throw it in a bowl, and maybe add in some other stuff. Another might be your ormal salad topper of tomatoe, onion, cucumber, celery. The imagination is your only limiting thing.
One other note, someone mentioned greek yogurt, which you can use to make Tatzlili (sp?_. Get a pnt or more container of plain yogurt, place it in cheescloth in a bowl, cover, let it sit overnight in the refrigerator. The water will drain out, then squeeze the cheescloth to get rid of the remainder of the liquid. Add chopped or thinly sliced cucumber, lemon juice and some cilantro and you have a great condiment or salad topper.
Tim


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