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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:17 pm 
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stuward wrote:
Tim

Maybe we need a sticky with articles that everyone should read. There are some really good references in this and other recent threads.

what would be some of the aritcle?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:33 pm 
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1. Chisell, as to rest periods, while working for fat loss as outlined in my original link, the "Heirarchy of Fat Loss", Cosgrove recommends attacking it all out. Using basic basic ME (max effort workouts) for 1-3 exercises to maintain, then transition into intervals. Rippetoe's program maintains, even builds strength and size. When using weights say as intervals, rest periods should be minimal. I gave an example earlier, of swings. Other examples could be circuits or complexes done with minimal rest periods and moderate weights. Cosgrove mention this in the article. I will give one specific example of a complex though, but you could come up with thousands of variations. Load a bar up with 60}{% of your 1RM for the upright row. Do 6 each reps of the following exercises, same weight, non stop. Upright row, power snath with the bar lowered down to mid shin for the start, then squat-pushpresses, aka thrusters, good mornings, p bar dips and chins. Rest 1-2 mins between rounds. Or you could just do sprints on a bike, or running on a trackAnother example of intervals w/weights; put two DB's or KB's about 50 yards apart. Start at one end, do 10 db snatches w/ the left arm, 10 with the right, JOG over to the next DB, do 10 thrusters R and then 10 thrusters L, job back to station 1 and do 10 and 10 r of something else, maybe clean and jerk, and just keep the intervals moving. An example of bodyweight conditioning; Crossfit's "Cindy" Do as many rounds in 20 mins of 5 pullups, 10 pushups, 15 bodyweight squats. You can see it is very taxing on the metab olism, but with the short rests, and lighter weights, it shouldn't really interfere with your heavier ME efforts. It doesn't with me, and I'm 58. Also useful are what Cosgrove terms "hybrids", which are just two major movements put together. Squat-oushpress combinations, snatch / overhead squat combo's, etcAll very powerful medicine for fat loss. One rule, ME, max effort, longer rest breaks; metcon, intervals or whateer else you may term them, minimal rest, get that ticker going.
Hope this helps with the differentiation for rest periods.
Tim


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:36 pm 
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Stuward, you're absolutely right, we should put up some stickies for basic linksIf everyone chimes in, Ironman and I can get together , consolidate them into various pages in the various forumsGo ahead and PM me, and I'm sure Ironman won't mind you PMing him either
Tim


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:47 pm 
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I'm glad that was a helpful link. Don't thank me so much as the guy who posted it here - I knew about Starting Strength but I had no idea there was such a complete writeup of the workout.

There is another basic workout here:
http://www.totalstrength.info/Designing ... xcerpt.htm

A two-day-a-week workout written up by John Christy. He generally emphasizes compound exercises done at a reasonable and appropriate volume with good periods of rest. He also emphasizes doing hard, consistant work...so generally his articles are worth reading just for that. That could also make a good basic program, or maybe work as an intermediate one after you get through Starting Strength.

Lots of folks over on crossfit.com use Starting Strength (so much so it's a standard answer to many if not most weight training questions), so you can get more advice there. That awesome two-page thread on the program is on bodybuilding.com, but I've never set eyes on their forums except for that.

Good luck, take your time, always use perfect technique, and work hard and you'll be happy with the results. And make sure to get enough rest! I always tell my friends when they start "Don't get so excited by the soreness and the improved strength that you rush ahead and hurt yourself." You've got the rest of your life to train, don't screw up now and get injured. :D


Last edited by pdellorto on Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:57 pm 
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Wow, ranemanshoe, I have never seen so much wrongness. I disagree with almost everything you said. There is no need to limit olive oil or salt. There is nothing but junk science and cherry picking to support such bologna. And plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise. Then of course this is coming from a vegetarian who eats white bread...... so there you go.....

Yea, I have been thinking sticky's would be a good idea. I can write something up, pull stuff out of other threads or just make a good thread sticky. Feel free to message me with anything you think will be useful. I'll dig around a bit too and see if I can find something useful. It will probably be next week. Work is pretty hectic right now.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:30 pm 
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chissel wrote:
This extra cardio might be quite a lot so I might leave it a few weeks before I throw it in -- any thoughts?


It might be, so you can always skip it the first week, see how you feel, and add it back in the next week or the one after. It's probably not too much, and cardio is good for you. You can always take it back out if it bothers you, but you need at least a week of baseline weight-only training or you won't know what is causing your tiredness or soreness.


chissel wrote:
Workout A:

3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench press
1x5 Deadlift
2x8 Dips

2x15 Abs


Workout B:

3x5 Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Pendlay rows
2x8 Pullups

2x15 Abs (different from workout A)


Take this with a big grain of salt, since I haven't done the program I linked to. But if it says "don't add anything until you've done this for a while" I'd do that. Start with the basics, add the pullups and dips later. But it is your body, you can feel how the workout affects you. Probably not much at first while you find the right weight level, but still.

I'd strongly advise you get Starting Strength if you're going to follow its program. The second edition is due out this month, apparently. In the meantime, you're at a university - Inter Library Loan submissions and the ISBN are all you need. Go to the library, fill one out and in a couple weeks they'll give you the book from some library. I rarely had a failure, because they can borrow from across the whole country.


chissel wrote:
Resting: 60-90 seconds between sets... ?


I'd up this - it says "several minutes" and I think John Christy recommends 3 minutes between sets. You're looking for perfect form and strength, so don't rush through it. Better 3 minutes between sets and a perfect 3x5 at working weights than a rush of 1 minute or so and sets that aren't quite perfect. Let your body recover and then do it. In a program aimed at overall conditioning and upping your metabolism, less rest is ideal. For strength, rest more.

chissel wrote:
- What two exercises (one for workout A, the other for B) can I do for my abs that will work all the muscles well (upper and lower rectus abdominis and obliques). Crunches & hanging leg-hip raises? And what about the number of sets/reps I've got for the ab exercises?


I like full military-style situps, hanging leg-hip raises when I can do them, and "bicycles" - knee-to-opposite elbow crunches, one per side = 1 rep. I mix them up.

chissel wrote:
- How do you do warmup sets for said programme? I haven't really ever done a programme like this that involves lots of compound movements, and I've never done warmup sets before. I found http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=10347183&postcount=226 posted for warmup sets, but does this really mean you do 5 warmup sets?! Surely I'd be knackered before I even do my 'work' sets. I was thinking 2 warmup sets at the most... ?


It does seem like a lot, I come from a "one warmup set" background. If you are taking long rests bewteen sets and not doing too many reps on each warmup set, you should be fine. If you can squat 3x5x200#, say, a given set of 2 reps at 175# followed by a 3 minute rest shouldn't take too much out of you. But yeah, if I did it the first thing I'd change is doing a bit less warmups. Maybe that's why I'm not huge or extremely strong, though.

chissel wrote:
- Warmdown stretching and bike for 5 mins for warmdown?


Try it and see. I follow my weight routines with full-out training due to my schedule, so I don't warm down so much as eventually collapse in a heap in the corner after MMA class. But I think warmup and warmdown is really personal, you need to know what gets you rolling and what cools you down slowly. Stretching on the warmdown is a good idea, though.

chissel wrote:
Again, I apologise for the rambling nature and the million or so questions I've asked!


If you don't ask, you won't learn! I learned a lot since I started posting here by asking my own rambling questions.

Hope that helps,

Peter


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:31 pm 
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"Wow, ranemanshoe, I have never seen so much wrongness. I disagree with almost everything you said. There is no need to limit olive oil or salt. There is nothing but junk science and cherry picking to support such bologna. And plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise. Then of course this is coming from a vegetarian who eats white bread...... so there you go....."

ok, actually what i said isn't "wrongness." and white bread isn't bad for you.

if you buy french white bread, ie without all the preservatives, then in moderation it isn't bad for you. sure, whole grain bread is better for you, but that doesn't mean white bread is bad for you.

not only are your comments ridiculous, but it shows a complete lack of thought into the issue of nutrition. nutrition is a spectrum, not just simply a set of right and wrong. If you don't understand that, it's not even worth discussing with you.[/quote]


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:20 pm 
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If you could explain how white bread is good for you, I would be happy to agree with you. I am sure most arguments you might use could be applied to .... pizza, ice cream, cake etc.

Anything that doesn't have "whole wheat" listed as the first ingredient is almost all of the time junk in terms of good for you.

If I were to adopt your logic, I could say "no food is bad for you" and that is somewhat true. Eating anything once will not cause your body any harm unless it is some hazardous material. Over the long term however, there is no reason to consume white bread instead of wheat bread.

While there are many things that are not bad for you, there are things that are better for you. In my experience, I have found whole wheat to cost the same as white bread so there is no monetary concern with choosing one instead of the other.

You said a lot of stuff about olive oil and salt as well which you didn't respond too, so I assume that means you agree with Ironman? You would likely find that if everyone consumed more olive oil, there would be many fewer health problems that there are today.

The question should be, which is better and which is worse? I think the clear answer is that white bread is worse and whole wheat is better.

If you have some credentials or know of some research to attest otherwise I would happily look into those as I am sure many on the board would also do.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:07 pm 
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Thanks for all the replies again.

So I've decided I'll do 3 or so warmup sets, with 60-90 second rests between them, and then work sets with 2-3 minute rests between them. I've also taken your advice and removed the dips and pullups but left the ab work because I'm stubborn. I think I'll add the dips/pullups in 4-8 weeks. Probably add the cardio around the same time as well, if not a bit earlier.

Still not sure what exercise I can do for my abs that works all the muscles well. What are "full military-style situps", pdellorto? >_< And also, what is the difference between a situp and a crunch, if any? Any ideas for a good all-in-one ab exercise then?


Anyway, the main problem I have now is diet. After reading the links provided by Tim, I realised that I've been going about it the wrong (or rather, sub-optimum) way --- I've been having 3 meals a day, with my dinner being as big as my previous meals combined (I'm guessing this is really bad). Instead, I'm going to go for the 6 meals a day, 2-3 hours apart.

My main worry about this is that I'm worried that I'll eat too much. I'm currently eating around 1200 calories a day, and I want to stay around this much in order to facilitate weight loss. So I figure 6 x 200 calorie meals, roughly. And yes, I appreciate that it's not so much the calorific quantity, but rather the quality, I just don't want to plateau in terms of weight loss -- or worse regress -- due to the diet change.

I think I'm going to be scrapping bread, margarine and the Weetabix from my diet, and halving the amount of yogurt I have. Am I right that I should be avoiding foods like bread and potatoes, and instead get my carbs from vegetables and fruit? And do any of you know how Weetabix are health-wise? I'm thinking of having an egg (or eggs) for breakfast instead.

Looks like I'll have meat with every meal, so I'm thinking eggs, chicken, tuna, ham, but don't know what else. And for carbohydrates I have vegetables? And some fruit? The articles seem to have fats too with each meal... do I add these separately, or pick foods that include them. And do I take it I have something rich in carbohydrates (and with some protein) post-workout?

When do you fit your workout into your day? Is it inadvisable to workout in the morning, after my body's been fasting all night and I've only eaten breakfast. I'm thinking of having my meals at roughly 2.5 hour intervals, like so: 7:30 10:00 12:30 15:00 17:30 20:00. Where might be the best time to go to the gym?

Argh, I have so many questions regarding diet. Does anyone have an example 6-daily-meals plan for fat loss? All I see are guides to what should be in the mini meals, but no concrete example plan for a day (or days) with actual quantities.

Thanks a million, guys.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:27 pm 
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chissel wrote:
Still not sure what exercise I can do for my abs that works all the muscles well. What are "full military-style situps", pdellorto? >_< And also, what is the difference between a situp and a crunch, if any? Any ideas for a good all-in-one ab exercise then?


A full military situp means your legs are at about 90 degrees, feet anchored (actually, I don't anchor mine, I just go slowly), and sit up fully. Crunches are usually very short-ranged - just enough to get the shoulder blades off the floor when you squeeze your abs to lift. I do both, actually. The situp gets lots of bad press, but if you concentrate on squeezing your abs to lift, they'll hit the abs just fine.

They also show up that way in fitness tests around here, so I like to practice what I'm actually going to get tested on. Well, my students get tested, but if I can't whup on junior high kids in situps I feel kind of lame.


chissel wrote:
My main worry about this is that I'm worried that I'll eat too much. I'm currently eating around 1200 calories a day, and I want to stay around this much in order to facilitate weight loss. So I figure 6 x 200 calorie meals, roughly. And yes, I appreciate that it's not so much the calorific quantity, but rather the quality, I just don't want to plateau in terms of weight loss -- or worse regress -- due to the diet change.


That's really low. What I did to lose weight was actually based on a book called the West Point Diet. You drop to 1400 calories, then add about 100 calories a week until you get to the calorie level required for your goal weight and exercise.

But I'd still eat more, especially if you do all that lifting...you'll need the energy and the calories and the protein to grow.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:45 am 
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Well, ranemanshoe, I actually know quite a lot about nutrition. There is no right and wrong, there is no spectrum and white bread is very bad for you. And you are indeed wrong on every point. There is no scientific evidence to back up anything you said, and a whole mountain of it pointing to the contrary.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:45 am 
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Sorry, I just went back and re-read your original post and realized it says you are starting college in October, not started. But what I said about inter-library loan for books still applies for any US library. I worked in a tiny library in a small town, but I still was able to freely ILL stuff from around the country.

Peter


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:13 am 
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Looks like another food fight on this thread. All the more reason for people to keep a nutritional log. Try out various dietary plans and find (or create) the one that works best for you.

White bread and pasta have (perhaps deservedly) gotten a bad rap lately. I try to avoid them myself. But it's interesting to note that the highly regarded Mediterranean Diet consumes them in fairly large quantities. And the Japanese seem to be healthy on a diet that leans heavily on white rice


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:19 am 
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Bingo Stephen. Most plans do work, if you follow them. My best results have been using something similar to Berardi's general guidelines, but I've seen the vegan work quite well. People just have to try various things , log it and determine if it will work for them. I stay out of these type of things, it seems that its like attacking a person's religion. Aalso very similar to the fights of HIT vs volume.
Tim


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:23 am 
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Just a comment on the mediterranean thing Stephen brought up. I have spent a lot of time in the mediteranean (mostly Italy and France, but have been to spain, Israel, and Eqgypt), and from what I have witnessed in italy and in Southern France, is that yes, bread is available (usually the crusty white stuff), but the people seemed to use it sparingly, more like a condiment. And yes, the 1st or 2nd course of a meal might be a soup or a pasta dish, but the portions weren't large. It's not like here in the US where you go into a restuarant with a name of "The Spaghetti Factory" and get a 12" diameter plate chock full of the stuff. The main cours and the vegetable courses come later.
I've also spent a lot of time in Asia, and most of the meals are based on vegetables, with some meat added if desired, with some rice or noodles as a base, but again, portion size was huge. I think the main reason most diets work is if you can keep portions under control. I personally like the general guidelines of Berardi and Dr. Serrano (he did the nutritional section here at this site). They follow the sience, and if you look at it, they really don't promote avoiding altogether much of anything other than sugar and highly refined food sources, which should be common sense anyway. You want a potatoe? Fine, Just might want to watch how much.
OK, off the soap box
Tim


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