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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:45 pm 
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I seem to recall someone mentioning a routine designed to improve your deadlift max, that is done without actually deadlifting. I believe it was mentioned here, but not sure?

If anyone recalls a similar post or better yet, the actual routine, please point me in the right direction.

Cheers!
-Hoister


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:57 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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You could use Squats and SL Deadlifts (straight-back style) for most of your workouts and only perform Standard Deadlifts once every few weeks to test you 1RM. I've done this before with pretty good results. Also, if you do a lot of Olympic lifts, this could help improve your deadlift.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:01 pm 
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PS.) I'm thinking of going back to using Straight-leg Deadlifts for my higher rep (5-8) workouts, and only doing Standard Deadlifts on my low rep (1-3) days.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:09 pm 
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I like box squats and rack pulls as well as a lot of rows. When I was trying to increase my deadlift I would do a lot of that as well as GHR and not deadlift more than once every 3-4 weeks but everytime I did deadlift I could go up 5-10 lbs.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:13 pm 
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Hoister wrote:
I seem to recall someone mentioning a routine designed to improve your deadlift max, that is done without actually deadlifting. I believe it was mentioned here, but not sure?

If anyone recalls a similar post or better yet, the actual routine, please point me in the right direction.


Try this:

http://www.strengthcats.com/nodeadlift.htm


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:59 pm 
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Kenny wrote a great article on that for Strengthcats that Stephen posted up. Starr's initial "routine" per se, if there actually was any specific one, was based on push, pull and squat donr 3X week in a one-two week period using Power Shrugs from the knee level in a rack for heavy day, Hi pulls off the floor or power cleans for medium day, and power snatche, ighter power cleans and or good mornings for light pull day, good mornings usually done 3-4x8 as extra assistance on any given day. I have seen one variation, by Starr, on that and it wzas one day/wk DL working good mornings, and everything up to a heavy clean grip high pul to belt level off the floor. Actually, Hoister, your evolution workout I'v seen you post over at Bryce;s board was very similar.
Tim


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:52 pm 
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The deadlift saved my lifting career. When I started years ago, my long arms and legs made me a bust at squatting and bench pressing. I especially took a lot of ribbing over my bench press. But once a trainer showed me how to deadlift, I went from pulling under 100 pounds to over 300 in about a year. Guys who once laughed at me were asking me for deadlifting tips.

I don't think that I would ever drop the deadlift from my workout. It would be like losing a good friend.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:37 pm 
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That's how I am. My deadlift is my best by far.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:20 pm 
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Stephen Johnson wrote:
The deadlift saved my lifting career. When I started years ago, my long arms and legs made me a bust at squatting and bench pressing. I especially took a lot of ribbing over my bench press. But once a trainer showed me how to deadlift, I went from pulling under 100 pounds to over 300 in about a year. Guys who once laughed at me were asking me for deadlifting tips.

I don't think that I would ever drop the deadlift from my workout. It would be like losing a good friend.


I think it's the most natural lift one can take part in...that's why its so beneficial!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:16 am 
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That’s a very interesting article. What would a no-deadlift deadlift routine look like? The article talks about Cleans, High Pulls, explosive Shrugs, and Good Mornings. Squats get a mention too. Would you do them all in one go, or scattered around during the week? What else is worth doing? I’ve heard dumbbell or kettlebell swings help a lot, what with the explosive hip extension you do. I’ve already looked for that Bill Starr article “A Different Approach To Improving The Deadlift” but google didn’t turn it up.

I’d love to see somehere take a crack at an exercises/sets/reps layout for something like this. I’m just not sure how to approach it. Especially because my squat sucks, so I can’t see it replacing my deadlift on its own for leg work and overall development.

As my deadlift weight goes up (I’m at 5x117.5kg for bw 85kg), it’s getting harder for my back to recover in only a week. I was planning to shift to metcons and explosive/power work for the last month before my next fight (probably November) anyway...I’d love to have it help my deadlifting too.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:31 am 
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Stephen Johnson wrote:
The deadlift saved my lifting career. When I started years ago, my long arms and legs made me a bust at squatting and bench pressing. I especially took a lot of ribbing over my bench press. But once a trainer showed me how to deadlift, I went from pulling under 100 pounds to over 300 in about a year. Guys who once laughed at me were asking me for deadlifting tips.

I don't think that I would ever drop the deadlift from my workout. It would be like losing a good friend.


Stephen, like you, I am built to deadlift. However, one of the problems with the deadlift is that the lower back overtraining very quickly and easily. This is especially true if one squats heavy and deadlifts heavy during the same week. I found that to be true for myself as well as others.

Another thing is that most lifters believe to deadlift more you have to keep deadlifting. Psychologically, they cannot get away from that idea.

With that information in hand, lifters who feel that they must deadlift to deadlift need to perform fewer deadlift sessions. This allows for a fuller recovery of the lower back.

Two lifters who increased their deadlift by performing fewer deadlift training sessions are Phil Rivera (a powerlifter in New Mexico) and Mike Tronski (a powerlifter in California).

We build Phil's routine around deadlfiting once a month. This took care of Phil's emotional need to do some deadlifts.

The other three weeks of Phil's program were devoted to Olympic pulls and good mornings.

Phil put 40 lbs on his deadlift with this method.

Mike Tronski's deadift training was limited to once every 14 to 21 days. With Mike we gauged it by how his back felt. If ihis back felt beat up, Mike would skip that week and deadlift the next week...providing his back had recovered.

Mike's non deadlift weeks were built around Olympic pulls and good mornings. Mike's deadlift went from 535 lbs to 589 lbs with this method. Mike is good for 600 lbs or a bit more on a good day.

I do no deadlifts until I get to the meet. My deadlift went from 540 lbs to 617 lbs with this program. You can find my 617 lb deadlift in the old folks section of the NASA New Mexico State Records.

My best pull out here in California is 595. It is listed in the USPF California State Records.

The main thing is to not overtrain you lower back.

Kenny Croxdale

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Thanks TimD.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:04 am 
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pdellorto wrote:
That’s a very interesting article. What would a no-deadlift deadlift routine look like? The article talks about Cleans, High Pulls, explosive Shrugs, and Good Mornings. Squats get a mention too. Would you do them all in one go, or scattered around during the week? What else is worth doing? I’ve heard dumbbell or kettlebell swings help a lot, what with the explosive hip extension you do. I’ve already looked for that Bill Starr article “A Different Approach To Improving The Deadlift” but google didn’t turn it up.

I’d love to see somehere take a crack at an exercises/sets/reps layout for something like this. I’m just not sure how to approach it. Especially because my squat sucks, so I can’t see it replacing my deadlift on its own for leg work and overall development.

As my deadlift weight goes up (I’m at 5x117.5kg for bw 85kg), it’s getting harder for my back to recover in only a week. I was planning to shift to metcons and explosive/power work for the last month before my next fight (probably November) anyway...I’d love to have it help my deadlifting too.


Pdeliorto,

As you noted, the lower back is easily overtrained. Especially, when you are squatting and deadlifting heavy each week.

There are a variety of ways to write that program. My program revolves around complex training. Basically, super sets of a good mornings (strength) with something like a hang pull clean (power).

Three minute rest periods are taken between each strength and power set. 4 sets with 1-5 reps.

Example:
Set 1 Good Morning
Set 2 Hang Pull Cean
Set 3 Good Morning
Set 4 Hang Pull Clean

You alternate a strength set with a power or speed movement.

Another method would be to perform all of you Olympic pulls for you first exercise. Then follow it with good mornings.

You usually want to perform any speed or power movement before a strength movement to get the most out of it.

A third way would be to alternate what you do each week. If your lower back training is on Thursday, perform strength training one week and power training the next week...then repeat.

Example:

Week 1: Strength work such as good mornings or deadlifts.
Week 2: Power work with Olympic pulls.
Week 3:, Strength
Week 4: Power

You want to implement power and speed movements into you lower back training.

You also want to provide recovery time for you lower back.

The foundation of speed and power are built on strength. However, since you are fighting, you'd want to perform more power and speed mvoements the closer you get to you tournament.

Kenny Croxdale

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Thanks TimD.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:15 am 
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Quote:
I’ve heard dumbbell or kettlebell swings help a lot, what with the explosive hip extension you do.


I forgot to address this. Yes, kettlebell swings help a lot. You can use dumbbells for this movement. Dumbbells work pretty well.

Also, plyometric help...depth jumps, load release jumps, etc.

Quote:
I’ve already looked for that Bill Starr article “A Different Approach To Improving The Deadlift” but google didn’t turn it up.


At one time it Starr's article was listed on line but I cannot find it either.

Kenny Croxdale

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Thanks TimD.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:38 am 
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Thanks all for the info and Kenny for elaborating on your article (good article).

I am not looking to stop deadlifting, i am looking to improve it and therefore, looking for a new approach. Deads are a staple in my workout. I deadlift heavy (5x5) 1-2 times per week (altnerating with squats) as well as do the olympic pulls (for power and conditioning work) 5-7 days per week. I was looking for something a bit different to switch things up and "sneak" some gains in through another avenue. I will try to work these ideas in and see how they work out for me.

TimD wrote:
Actually, Hoister, your evolution workout I'v seen you post over at Bryce;s board was very similar.
Tim


My evolution workout has served me well. And guess i never considered it a tool to improve my deadlift but more as a have it all type of workout. Thanks for pointing out the obvious to me once again! ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:10 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Kenny, thanks for the followup. I appreciate it.

I am a little concerned with Good Mornings for strength. I’ve done them at around 20kg, but never higher. Putting more weight than that on my upper back and bowing over worries me - I work out alone so I’m leery of exercises that put lots of weight over the back of my neck like that. Is there another alternative, like perhaps doing Stiff-Legged Deadlifts or something else? I don’t have access to a back extension unit so I can’t do weighted back extensions. I’ve only been doing those 20kg GMs in complexes and when Back Extensions come up in a crossfit WOD.

As for Olympic pulls, will one-handed versions transfer enough? My gym has standard weights and standard bars only, and no place to ditch. Partial barbell cleans are fine, anything more is tricky. What I’ve been doing instead is one-handed work - dumbbell snatches, dumbbell cleans, dumbbell push jerks, the dumbbell swings I mentioned before, push presses, etc. instead of barbell clean & jerks, barbell snatches, etc. Obviously the weight I’m snatching/cleaning/etc. each rep is much lower - like 45% of my barbell weights. Will I benefit from that?

Thanks for the help,

Peter


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