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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:28 pm 
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I am trying to bulk up cleanly. From what I understand eating plenty of carbs is necessary basically to prevent muscle catalysis. But why "complex carbs like pasta, brown rice, fruits, etc?" Complex carbs break down to glucose slower than foods with high glycemic index, but couldn't you just constantly consume very small quantities of sugary foods to accomplish the same thing?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:34 pm 
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Well, if you want to risk turning yourself into a diabetic, go for it. Plenty of Americans are doing just that. It's gotten to epidemic proportions right nowEvery time you eat that sugary fast break down stuff, it spikes insulin. Let's just forget the fact that insulin is a storage hormone , that part of storing the glycogen then slamming stuff down into fat stores is just part of it. Your internal organs don't particularly get along with high amounts of insulin floating around them. It does nastythings, like all the complications of being a type II diabetic.
Tim


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:52 pm 
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Don't forget other nutrients as well, vitamins and minerals. They are usually missing in sugar laden foods and are more likely associated with complex carbs and especially in vegetables.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:24 pm 
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When it comes to complex carbs. the food most of the time has necessary nuitrients in it that are required for a functional metabolism (vitamins, minerals) and bodily functions. Chances are if all you eat is sugary food that it will no nuitritional value (empty calories) and your body will eventually shut down because of it. Thats like eating a chocolate bar every couple of hours. Also since it takes much longer for the body to digest complex carbs it will keep you blood glucose level at a constant level and won't cause insulin spike like Tim was mentioning. When you do eat sugary foods to it gives you that sugar rush for about 5 mins and then insulin is released and it cause your blood glucose levels to drop below the norm causing you to crash. Why would you want to eat a bunch of little sugary things every hour or so, that would get annoying. In theory you could keep eating a bunch of little sugary snacks, but since life has a little bit more involved than just chemistry you'll become a diabetic because of it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:07 pm 
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Well alright then, complex carbs it is. Lately I've been drinking a lot of orange juice and fruit punch between meals as a shortcut for extra calories, but I guess I'll just have to start eating more rice and pasta.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:51 pm 
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Make sure it's brown rice. White rice is as bad as sugar. Actually, have your carbs in a meal with fat and protein. The combination lowers the GI of the meal.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:49 pm 
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One note about fruit juice; all the cardiologists I've talked too (my father needs checkups regularly and I take him) all point to juice and soda (the sugary kind) as real villians when it comes to type II diabetes (way too many sugar calories, and you can lose track of them very quickly), and I know they hate all those commercials on TV promoting fruit juice as healthy. It is, to a degree, but they all say a 6 oz glass in the morning is more than enough, and eat your fruits, don't drink them (your losing out on fiber_. Yeah, I know, Jack Lalane is pushing for the juicers, but look at what he's juicing if you catch the infomercial,he's juicing up vegetables as well.
Tim


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:43 am 
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I might be wrong here but you call 'Pastas and rices' ... aren't these merely starch which then turns to sugar in your mouth?

I guess no if they are brown pasta/brown rice?

Can someone with more knowledge answer this, it might be an important consideration for the OP.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:34 am 
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Carbs. are polymers of glucose. Starch which is how plants store carbs. are the same thing. All things of composed of glucose but its the complexity of its structure which would make starch different from glucose. Glucose (C6,H12,O6), Lactose (C6,H12,O6 + C6,H12,O6 =C12,H22,O11..math isn't wrong either), Carbs (C6,H12,O6 + C6,H12,O6 + C6,H12,O6 + C6,H12,O6 + ...). In a sort of way their the same but their different.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:30 am 
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ironmaiden708 wrote:
Carbs. are polymers of glucose. Starch which is how plants store carbs. are the same thing. All things of composed of glucose but its the complexity of its structure which would make starch different from glucose. Glucose (C6,H12,O6), Lactose (C6,H12,O6 + C6,H12,O6 =C12,H22,O11..math isn't wrong either), Carbs (C6,H12,O6 + C6,H12,O6 + C6,H12,O6 + C6,H12,O6 + ...). In a sort of way their the same but their different.


The point is that corn which has been 'opened' i.e. not full corn has the CHO chain broken down, causing the starch to turn to sugar in the mouth (try chewing a peice of bread for 20-30s and it will taste sweet). Once the starch turn to sugar in the mouth, it acts the same all the way through the body ... you might aswell eat a couple of sugar cubes :)

Anyway, I'm not a nutrition expert, this is just the general impression I got through reading other articles etc. I am happy to be corrected though.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:54 am 
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Daniel, following is a post I made a little while ago so I don't have to repeat myself:
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Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:26 am

Fibrous veg is the best source of nutrients and the are relatively low on calories and high in fibre. These would be all the green and colourful veg. Regardless of your diet you can and should eat as many of these vegetables as you want without restriction. Some even burn more calories than they provide. These are even better when eaten raw.

What's not included are potatoes, sweet potatoes, legumes and corn. (Corn is actually a grain) These are higher in calories and would be better in bulking diets. Grains should be treated similarly as they are less nutrient dense and higher calories. The additional issue with grains is over processing. You should avoid any white grains (white flour, sugar, white rice) except for post workout. Grains should always be cooked.

Fruits are healthy but some are concerned in the amount of sugar in them. These should also be eaten in moderation.

Stu


Starch will turn to sugar. The speed that that happens is dependant on it's GI (actually GI is dependant on the speed). Most of these starchy veg and whole grains are medium GI. The highly processed foods are generally higher.

http://www.diabetes.ca/Section_About/glycemic.asp

The problems with high GI are exactly as you say. It's like eating sugar. Med and low GI is handled differently as doesn't have the same insulin response. Yes it becomes sugar but so what. It has to be converted in order to be used as energy. it's just a matter of how fast it's converted.

The other factor is nutrient density. You will build more muscle per calorie if your meals are full of vitamins and minerals. Fibrous veg will provide more nutrients per calorie than any starchy veg or grain, even sweet potatoes. The problem is that for someone trying to bulk, it's hard to get enough calories so you have to turn to these foods. That's why oatmeal, sweet potatoes, brown rice and pasta are important for people with high calorie needs.

Stu


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:37 am 
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stuward wrote:
Daniel, following is a post I made a little while ago so I don't have to repeat myself:
Quote:
Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:26 am

Fibrous veg is the best source of nutrients and the are relatively low on calories and high in fibre. These would be all the green and colourful veg. Regardless of your diet you can and should eat as many of these vegetables as you want without restriction. Some even burn more calories than they provide. These are even better when eaten raw.

What's not included are potatoes, sweet potatoes, legumes and corn. (Corn is actually a grain) These are higher in calories and would be better in bulking diets. Grains should be treated similarly as they are less nutrient dense and higher calories. The additional issue with grains is over processing. You should avoid any white grains (white flour, sugar, white rice) except for post workout. Grains should always be cooked.

Fruits are healthy but some are concerned in the amount of sugar in them. These should also be eaten in moderation.

Stu


Starch will turn to sugar. The speed that that happens is dependant on it's GI (actually GI is dependant on the speed). Most of these starchy veg and whole grains are medium GI. The highly processed foods are generally higher.

http://www.diabetes.ca/Section_About/glycemic.asp

The problems with high GI are exactly as you say. It's like eating sugar. Med and low GI is handled differently as doesn't have the same insulin response. Yes it becomes sugar but so what. It has to be converted in order to be used as energy. it's just a matter of how fast it's converted.

The other factor is nutrient density. You will build more muscle per calorie if your meals are full of vitamins and minerals. Fibrous veg will provide more nutrients per calorie than any starchy veg or grain, even sweet potatoes. The problem is that for someone trying to bulk, it's hard to get enough calories so you have to turn to these foods. That's why oatmeal, sweet potatoes, brown rice and pasta are important for people with high calorie needs.

Stu


Nice one, thanks.

Anychance of getting this stickied by one of the mods. Infact, is there any chance of getting a sticky like the ones in the general forum with the '7 tips' website, some information like this etc?

It would be a big help I think and save people having to repeat everything to people like me who forget every 2 weeks :p


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:01 am 
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I've already asked Stu about that and he agreed to let me "stickey" it, but with the mod controls we have here, I'm not sure how to pick the one post out of the thread. I'll probably just cut and paste it into a new original post and sticky it. Give me a few hours. I'm at work now, and don't think the boss would like me messing around much.
Tim


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:52 pm 
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For future reference, there is an option to split a post off of a thread.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:25 pm 
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I believe it's called pruning, I just figured it was easier and less confusing to cut and paste it into its own new "sticky" thread.
Tim


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