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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:51 am 
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Apprentice
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Location: New York
First let me state that there is more than 1 way to train and get results. But I am entitled to my opinion and I disagree with some things.

The main thing I disagree with is all the body part splits. I know what the basic rational is - you can exhaust your muscles more this way. The questions I have:
-what has convinved you that a body part split is the way to go (your source of information)?
-why do you think you must totally kill your self and exhaust your muscles to make progress (again source of information)?

Some people say that when you are really advanced you can't make progress any other way. I disagree, but even if it was true. How many of us are THAT advanced. Dan John defines BASIC STRENGHT as a body weight bench AND a 2x body weight deadlift. This is BASIC. What is advanced? Are you advanced?
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=537463

Here is what Alwyn Cosgrove has to say about body part splits:
"I think my mission in life is to rid the world of this ridiculous workout notion. Somehow this highly developed organism that we call the human body is not a remarkable piece of machinery that functions flawlessly as a unit, it's just random ass "parts" put together — each of which can be worked separately.

My arse.

You didn't even turn your computer on using only one muscle so why in God's name are you trying to develop a body using some sort of body part split?

And while I'm on the subject, how come fingers and toes don't get their own "day"?

Biceps get their own special recognition, what about fingers and toes and sternocleido mastoids? Or left arm on one day, right arm on another day (different body parts)? Because it's stupid, right? Well, so is splitting up your chest and shoulder "days".

There are NO athletes other than a small bunch of genetically gifted, pharmaceutical abusing individuals who use a "body part" split with any success. NONE.

Now, if you ARE one of the genetic elite pharmaceutical abusers, then feel free.

Split routines arrived on the scene shortly after Dianabol was popular. Do you see the connection?

Now before you ask me, "Can I split up my routine in some way?" Of course you can. But split it up based on what your body DOES, not based on what "part" it is. Splitting up by parts makes as much sense as splitting up by the number of freckles in that area."

http://www.alwyncosgrove.com/shakemyhead.html

Let have a respectful discussion ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:23 am 
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In Memoriam: TimD
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Hi George. You're speaking to the choir with me, as you can probably tell already. I'm probably a little more relaxed than you though, in that for bodybuilding, I can actually see a high volume buildup, and in some cases it may make sense to do an upper/lower, etc. Let me give you a bit of background, however. I think this will shed some light on the subject.
Prior to the mid sixties (about the time I started out), training with weights really wasn't in the mainstream, and most of it was full body routines , with compound exercises. The old York system was advanced in that it was based on courses done throughout the week. 2 of them were different full body routines done with compound moves based on exercises, The third was a routine done with mostly weightlifting moves done for repititions, the fourth was actually going for a PR on the lifts themselves. Quite a unique concept.The other were standard full body routines with 5-7 eercises, that varied from sesssion to session for about 2-3 sets at a top weight for the seleted amount of reps. Also, back then, lots of DB work done with 1 and 2 arms, based on the lifts as well as exercises. A lot of the routines you will see today over at dragon door and crossfit with KB's resemble these old routines. Very effectives on the core and posterior chain.
In the 60's and 70's, the Weider's and others got in on the game, and along came specialization on bodybuilding. It had always been around, but known as physical culture. They saw the opportunities to capitalize (not saying that this was bad-just stating what happened), and along came magazines, courses, etc. Well, how many people are going to pay for a magazine that sells the same thing over and over? So along came splits, muscle isolation, etc, etc, , and now we've evolvedto where we are today, and yes, like you, I keep seeing young beginner's out there wanting a 3-4 way split, which supps to eat to get hyooge and ripped at the same time. Oh well. They'll learn.
Tim


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:18 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Hi,

Let me write my personal opinion, and give you a little background - which probably won't help you much. I'm 21 and have been training strictly for 2 years, my goal has always been strength and size. So i guess i'm included in the new breed of bodybuilders that always do the splits in question. Probably should add that i am also strictly 'natural', only thing I have dabbled in is Creatine.

I started off on a full body routine, I was on this for around 6 months then moved onto a 4 day spit, usually 2 muscle groups per day e.g bi's and tri's, back and shoulders, chest, legs and abs - this changes but generally it is this.

FYI, biggest reason for coming off the full body - it didn't feel as satisfying. It began to drag on for 2-3 hours and the 'good pain' that I learned to love stopped happening.

To quote George G

"what has convinced you that a body part split is the way to go (your source of information)?"

I just love training individual muscles. I usually do 2 muscles per day but if I had the time, I would train one muscle per day as I really enjoy zoning in on one muscles and working it till it's completely zapped - I get alot of satisfaction from this.

Another reason, I train in 2 gyms - one near work and one near home. I speak to most of the guys who are strong/big or just have impressive physiques and strenght. I can honestly say that I have never spoke to anyone with impressive size/strength who claims to have achieved this from a full body workout, and infact, they all sell splits. I'm not saying they are 100% correct, this is just the influences I have around me when I train.


"why do you think you must totally kill your self and exhaust your muscles to make progress (again source of information)? "

Answer is much the same as previous one - I enjoy it. When sitting in work all day, I really look forward to "killing myself" in the gym.

There's my views, apologies for not being able to provide any sources - just preference. And, I see people every time I train who - in my view - prove how effective split routines are.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:23 am 
Split routines are popular because they work. Do you really think the overwelming majority of bodybuilders AND powerlifters (both non-drug-tested and "natural") would use split routines if they didn't work.

Of course, this doesn't mean split routines are best for everyone. For example, Olympic weightlifters generally don't use split routines simply because the Olympic lifts are pretty much full body exercises. Likewise, for someone who's training primarilly to improve sports performance full body workouts might make more sense, especially if they include a lot of Olympic lifts and/or assist lifts in their program.

Also, using a split routines doesn't mean you have to kill yourself. Sure you have to work hard, and you will be soar for a day or two after a hard workout, but can you really expect to make signifigant gains without soar muscles.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:37 am 
PS.) There are many different types of split routines in which you can train each muscle group once, twice or even three times a week, with high, low, or medium volume. These include push/pull programs, upper/lower programs, double splits and other variations.

I've learned through years of experience that training each muscle group once a week with moderate volume is the variation which works best for me, and because it's worked so well for me I would encourage others with similar goals to at least try this type of program.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:09 am 
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Apprentice
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Just to clarify - nobody is arguing against splitting up your routine. It is the logic behind the split that I would like to focus on.

For example a push/pull routine is split pased on the type of MOVEMENT you are performing. I understand that.

But chest and legs on the same day? What is the rational behind that?

I guess what I am is that we don't train muscles I train MOVEMENTS!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:33 am 
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Member
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I guess I just dont see how you can get much out of doing a bunch of exercises for the same muscle. Unless you are totally slacking on the beginning sets, the later sets should be completely diminished in intensity, but I suppose for bodybuilding this can be ok.

But this is not functional strength. It teaches the body to hold back on maximum output so it can do a lot of submaximal output and hold off fatigue for a few more reps.

Also, yes powerlifters do split routines but they seldom do "muscle" splits. Movement splits are fine as they allow you to focus on one movement.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:47 am 
I think it comes down to one's goals. I plumber is going to use a pipe wrench, a carpenter is going to use a hammer. Could you use one method to achieve the same results intended by the other - yes, to a certain extent. However, the rationale behind each in this example is pretty clear cut. I agree with George, that i don't fully buy into all the rationale that goes into oly lifting, bodybuilding, powerlifting, etc.

I just know what works for me.

I am interested to see how this topic unwinds.


Hoister.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:50 am 
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In Memoriam: TimD
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Hi George. To answer your question on the chest/legs issue, well for BB, I guess it was pulled out of the air. However, I have run across that split for PL applications. The specific one I'm thinking of was popular in the 80's, for a 3X week program. Day 1, usually Mon, was Med Squat, Med BP or BP assist move, along with some lower body and arm assist if needed.
Day 2 usually Wed, Was a DL assist move, say SLDL or other ham dominant lower body move, along with mid back, and shoulder girdle assist (think traps and shoulders), for BP and DL assist (the upper back, shoulder girle keeps the bar in "the groove"). Day 3, Sat was heavy day and only the actual lifts were used, SQ, BP, and if you had the energy, the DL as well. It was used this way to simulate meet conditions. A split? Of sorts, I guess, but certainly not a musle isolation thing at all, and days 1 and 3 and maybe even 2 got the whole body kicking pretty well.
Tim


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:55 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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I would like to see what everyones goals are? Particularly George G and Ryan A, then the best thing, I think, is to see how each others goals affect our methods.

Would just like to state that I am not against a push/pull splits. Only reason I have not tried it is I have only been training 2 years and haven't had a chance yet. I think one thing is clear - in bodybuilding anyway - you must be open minded.

Thanks

KP


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:10 pm 
Most bodybuilders pair related muscle groups like chest and triceps/ back and biceps/ delts and traps/ quads and hamstrings. I've never heard of training legs and chest together.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:24 pm 
As for Ryan's question .... doing more than one excercise per bodypart can work well, but you have to choose your excercises carefully. I try to choose exercise that emphasize different parts of a muscle, or work a muscle from a variety of angles. For example, for deltoids I do Military Presses (mostly front delts), Dumbbell Laterals (side delts) and Prone Incline Laterals (rear delts) in that order. I feel this gives my deltoids balanced and proportional development that I wouldn't get if I only did Military Presses.

Of course, I also prioritize compound movements (like military presses), because these are the most important exercises, and I don't hold anything back on these, since they're the only overhead press I do.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:27 pm 
PS.) While I'm neither a bodybuilder, nor a powerlifter I train for both strengh and symetrical/proportional mass. I'd also like to lose a little more weight, but not at the expense of my mass and strength gains.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:40 pm 
I'm also 100% natural. The only supplement I use are whey protien and vitamins.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:57 pm 
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Apprentice
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:38 pm
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Location: New York
My goals:

I want to be healthy. I want to be athletic. I want to posses great passive and dynamic flexibility. I want balanced and symetric muscular development.

I want to look strong and powerful and be strong and powerful.
I want a 2.5xBW full squat. I want a 3xBW deadlift. I want a 2xBW bench. I want a 1.5xBW strict overhead press. I want a 1.5xBW powerclean.

I want to be a superathlete.

At 5'10" I want to be 200-210 lbs at <10% BF.

I want to be fast, I want to jump high. I want to run 3 miles in 18 minutes. I want to run a 40 in under 4.5. I have yet to determine how high I want to jump.

I think I want to be athletically perpared like the top guys that fight in MMA competitions. Only I don't want to do MMA.


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