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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:36 pm 
Do you do full body workout? If so, do you do the same workout three times a week or three different full body workouts?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:37 pm 
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n00b
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:28 pm
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Location: Devon, UK
TimD wrote:
I keep seeing young beginner's out there wanting a 3-4 way split, which supps to eat to get hyooge and ripped at the same time. Oh well. They'll learn.
Tim


You say about beginners like myself: 'oh well, they'll learn'
But i wonder how, if information is not passed on from experienced weight trainers like yourself?
Is that not how we learn? from recieving information from other people? Yes it is possible to learn through making your own mistakes and making appropraite adjustments, but is it not far more efficient to ask advice from people far more experienced than us?
The point i am trying to make:
I am 18 and have been lifting for nearly a year, recently I posted up my idea for a new 3 day split routine, asking for any advice/criticisms. I am extremely grateful for the information and advice passed on to me from members of this forum such as Matt Z and Stephen Johnson, however if you are seeing beginners like myself wanting 3/4 day splits to get 'hyooge' and you believe (which i am sure you are right) that this is NOT the right thing to do, then why not tell them this to help them learn?
btw I do not wish to seem rude or arrogant just intrigued...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:22 pm 
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Location: Davis, California
There is something to be said for self discovery.

Nobody (atleast I think) believes something as much as when they discover it for themselves.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:35 pm 
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Location: Davis, California
To answer someone's question about my goals.

I am training mostly for weightloss(not just fat loss, weight loss).

I am currently around 230 at 6 feet. I really like heavy lifting and I really like explosive lifting. The rest of my time in the gym is spent playing basketball so being heavy really is not that great. I have always been big so gaining mass was never a problem. I can pretty much look at a weight and gain mass now if I am not watching what I eat closely.

On the same note, I am not willing to eat super strictly because I just really like enjoying food so I dont skip good tasting stuff. As a result my bodyfat is around 19% but I am hoping that will go down over time as I am just getting back into very regular training. I am very busy in a PhD program and some of that stuff takes priority over worrying a lot about training perfectly.

Ill post some numbers over in the record thread if that will help. I am also going to start up a log soon, so you can view that from then on.

When I first started lifting, I did Bench, squat and Power clean 2-3 times per week. That was for football.

When track started we did something a bit more advanced with Bench and squat on M and F usually with some form of olympic lifts and then on W we did deadlift or sometimes just more olympic lifts. For brief periods we did overhead presses and we also did a lot of hamstring curls, weighted situps, and behind the neck pulldowns. That was all I trained for the first 3-4 years which was all of high school.

Looking at what I do now, it isnt much different. Ive added more rowing movements and some new hamstring exercises like GHR and RDL but the rest is pretty much the same with slight variation.

I have done 2 days splits of Torso and Arms/Legs. I have done Push/Pull. I have done upper/lower. I have done movement splits and then certainly a lot of full body inbetween as filler workouts to take a break from the higher intensities of splits.

Hopefully that gives everyone a little more info on me.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:51 pm 
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In Memoriam: TimD
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Location: Va Beach, Va
To Hindsight. I am not against bodypar splits, if you ease into it. I don't a few months to maybe a year long enough to build a stong, solid base. Reread the links George posted in the original post. Sure, some people may get away with it, but frankly, the advice I would give any beginner is to concentrate on compound moves, can be full body, or upper lower, but the idea is to get the most musle stimulated, which gets the hormones raging. Personally, I can't see for the life of me spending a whole session on "arms". What amount of total musle does that stiulate? Not a whole lot. What amount of hormones (testosterone, gh) will that stimulate? Not a lot Now, that does not by any stretch mean do the same full body routine over and over again three days a week. Just look at my hournal and see my setup I'm starting on to rebuild my "basics". It's terribly simple, based on push, pull, and squat. Lots of different combos. I go enough P bar dips and chins on my GPP days that I need none of that factored into the equation. Now, when you get to where you can bench about 1 1/2 times your bodyweight, Squat about double bodyweight, overhead press your bwr, that's a very decent, solid strength base, and it MAY behoove you to seriously think about 3 day or more splits. And as was pointed out earlier, if you are training for sport or general conditioning, well, the body performs as a unit, so why not train it that way. Now, on the other hand, if you want just a collection of bodyparts, hey, I have nothing against that either, your choice, go for it. I just don't consider it optimal.
Tim


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:54 am 
Hindsight, I like to help people for just that reason. I spent a large ammount of time reading up on this, studying and experimenting on myself. I also got advice from people and absorbed everything I could from sites like this one for example. There is a lot of BS to sift through too. So I like to just tell people what I can and let them do it the easy way.

A year into it I think you are probably beyond full body, and all your beginner gains are done. You might do good with a 2 day split twice a week. At some point though you will probably find that you need more recovery time. When I got to the point where I needed at least 4 days, I found doing everything once a week offered me the same ammount of muscle gain. If you are 100% after 3 days, then who knows. Try them both and see which one give you better results.

Like other people have said, when you do splits you have to group it right. Group similer muscles together. Don't double work things. After you do your chest, front delts and triceps shouldn't need much.

You are also going to find there are different ways of doing things. You will find you can't just stick with the same one either. Body adaptation can be an issue. At the same time, you don't have to do it a lot of different ways, just rotate a few things. Some things do work better then others.

So feel free to ask anything. I would be glad to help you learn. Other people feel the same way too.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:01 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
lol, the original question in this topic was - why perform body part/muscle splits?

Reading through the posts and looking at everyones goals, it seems a more appropriate question would be - Why would you train like a bodybuilder?

On another note, as someone who trains with body part/muscle splits, I agree that a beginner should start with a full body routine, concentrating on compound movements. I think the time to stay on a full body varies from person to person but 1 year is a good time frame to use as a general guideline.

KP


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:47 am 
I used to do 3x full body, same workout. This was when I first started lifting and I stopped doing that after about 6-8 weeks.

Since then I have done upper/lower, push/pull, and full body with 2 or 3 different workouts.

Currently I am on an upper/lower split.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:48 am 
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Apprentice
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:38 pm
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Location: New York
Anonymous wrote:
I used to do 3x full body, same workout. This was when I first started lifting and I stopped doing that after about 6-8 weeks.

Since then I have done upper/lower, push/pull, and full body with 2 or 3 different workouts.

Currently I am on an upper/lower split.


This is George G.

Forgot to add that I was also on a pull/legs/push split.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:08 am 
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Apprentice
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Location: New York
I would like to challenge the notion that at a certain point in your training career you are suddenly byond full body workouts.

You are never beyond full body workouts. At least consider that this is possible. This does not mean you should always be doing them.

I also don't get arm days etc. The only reason I can think of for having an arm day is if they are your weakness and you want to bring them up. But even then I don't think it's optimal. I would just do arm exercises first in your workouts and priotarize them this way.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:50 am 
George, multiple sets are a proven thing. The one hour thing is also, at least for hypertrophy. Hence the splits. I have to agree on the arms thing though. That is silly to have a day for just arms. Especially when they got worked most of the way on other days.

Why workout like a bodybuilder? Well at first it was health, but after I got that sorted, I suppose it is 100% pure vanity.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:05 am 
Again I think it depends on your goals and how you prefer to train. Olympic lifters typically do full-body workouts, while powerlifters typically use split routines. Body are VERY strong and athletic.

As for why someone would want to train like a bodybuilder, I think it depends on which bodybuilder your refering to. Bodybuilders employ a wide variety of training strategys and as a result varry widely in terms of performance. Some are relatively weak for their size, not to mension slow and clumbsy. Others are very strong, functional and athletic. For example, I know of at least on pro-bodybuilder who is also a competative powerlifter.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:15 am 
I stayed out of this as long as i could.

I have found that everyone reacts a little differently to exercise/diet - at least on a certain level. Having said that, the rationale behind many or all routines is nothing more than a guideline as there are always exceptions to the "rules". All of the concepts we have to follow have been around some time now and have been proven effective by certain people and proven equally ineffective by certain OTHER people. The point is - it worked for some one, it might work for you. Likewise, it didn't didn't work for others so....

At the end of the day the concern is whether or not it suits your goals, is safe and makes you happy. I say toss the rationale and science behind it and try it - whatever IT is. Until then, you will not know if it works for you. Forget what works for your friends or heros - it might not apply completely to you.

I personally prefer the full body, abbreviated style of training done 2-3 times per week, using only full body compound movements or complexes. It suits my goals and fits in with my overall life style. Would i recommend my training routine to anyone? Never. Find what works for you and go with it.

For me - the 2 or 3 isolation moves per body part, split routines accomplish nothing more for me than soreness and overall misery. They are not fun and they don't achieve the goals i am after. Would i recommend that people don't follow them? Never.

I think to that people get to stuck in a box and they get so hung up on details that they spend so much time analysing rather than doing, that they don't go anywhere. Try it - then decide.

Everything that everyone has said here is completely true and accurate for some - for others it couldn't be more wrong. Some where in between, there is a middle ground that provides a starting point for EVERYONE.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:27 am 
Is there anyone here who uses only isolation exercises? I've never met or even heard of someone who trains this way.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:57 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
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I wouldn't say I am beyond full bodys but my full body routine went from around 45 minutes to 2 hours in duration, as I started lifting heavier - especially as I was reaching my body weight and beyond in some exercises. Personally I like the pain you get from training and I stopped getting this with the full body - felt like I could do it everyday.

The muscle splits I do ALWAYS have compound movements in them, no matter what body part. I generally leave the isolation exercises to after the compound movements. I would reverse this if/when I feel the need to pre-exhaust or even when I superset the same muscle - compound movement with an isolation.

I also do an "arm day".

"The only reason I can think of for having an arm day is if they are your weakness and you want to bring them up"

Exactly, so you can see the benifit of having an arm day???

Obviously there are other methods but if an arm day can bring them up to scratch, why not just HAVE an arm day - if its so effective?

I agree with the "different things work for different people" thing, but for me and most bodybuilders I know - we get a buzz from zapping the muscles, it feels good. That is the biggest reason I do it. Enjoyment.

Frankly, if i went to the gym and done 2 exercises on chest, I would feel like I was cheating myself - I dont actually think I could, I would have to do another 2 or 3, it just doesn't 'feel' enough and when I wake up the next day (or the day after, whenever the pain kicks in) and don't feel any pain, I dont like it. I feel like ive waisted my time although I know this is untrue but like everything, it's preference. In my opinion, most bodybuilders get satisfaction from hammering the same muscle from several angles in one workout.

KP


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