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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:42 pm 
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I was reading on this website power tidbits page regarding impaired power development during the eccentric and concentric phase, that to develop strength and muscle, it's better to power lift. I was taught by a triainer to lift in a 3-1-3 ratio, that is, lift for three seconds, hold for one second, then lower for three seconds.His reasoning is the muscle/muscles can lengthen better and build up better when lifting in this manner, not to mention less chance of injury by lifting slow. I am interested in comments on which is a better method to build and strengthen muscles.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:24 pm 
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Yes, you can use that method. That would be best for mass if you have hit a plateau. You will gain some strength as well. However, the most effective way to gain strength is to just lift heavy. After a few warm up sets, show no mercy - load up the bar. You should do multiple sets (5-8) of fewer than 4 reps each. If power is what you're looking for, speed is key. Get the bar up in as little time as possible. Maximum exertion in the least amount of time. The 3-1-3 method is NOT for power.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:11 pm 
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Hercules wrote:
. The 3-1-3 method is NOT for power.


Agreed.

I did a google search on "weight training strength vs power" and found this article, titled "Dispelling the Common Fallacies of Power and Strength Training." Of interest is this:

Quote:
Myth 5: A slow rep speed is just as effective as a faster one.

Had to include this one, although it’s not as prevalent as the others. It’s mainly perpetuated by lifters and writers from the high intensity school of thought. Those same people are quick to point out the importance of specificity in training except where it applies to rep speed. Some of them even take it to the extreme, recommending super slow reps that exceed five seconds.

Keep this in mind: Training slowly will make you slow. If you want to be really powerful not just strong you need to incorporate some type of speed training into your program. For instance, if you always train with really low reps, then your rep speed will of necessity be slow. If you do that consistently over several weeks, then you’ll be teaching your muscle to move the weight slowly, and as a result you’ll get weaker. You need speed work.

As a side note, when you perform speed work, try to keep your repetitions to no more than five. More than that, and you start to slow down, as your reps just don’t have the power that the first ones had.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:00 pm 
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bob wrote:
I was reading on this website power tidbits page regarding impaired power development during the eccentric and concentric phase, that to develop strength and muscle, it's better to power lift. I was taught by a triainer to lift in a 3-1-3 ratio, that is, lift for three seconds, hold for one second, then lower for three seconds.His reasoning is the muscle/muscles can lengthen better and build up better when lifting in this manner, not to mention less chance of injury by lifting slow. I am interested in comments on which is a better method to build and strengthen muscles.


Bob,

Strength has many faces. Strength is often referred to as force. To lift an 100 lb object, you need to produce more than 100 lbs of force, strength.

If the most you can lift is 100 lbs (your 1RM--1 repetition max), this is you Limit Strength.

Power is Force X Distance/Time (Distance Divided by Time). "Since the terms force and strength are often used interchangeably and distance divided by time is the same thing as speed, power can more simply be defined as strength multiplied by speed. Therefore,

Strength x Speed = POWER." http://www.strengthcats.com/plyobenchpress.htm

Speed is simply how fast you can go. Like limit strength it is fairly easy to understand. A car that can go 60 miles in a hour is traveling at a speed of 60 miles per hour.

Lifting heavy loads will increased your limit strength. Slow movements such as your "3-1-3 ratio" minimize momentum. With no momentum, the muscle has to works harder and your strength inceases. That providing that you tax the muscles involved with heavy loads, 85% plus of 1RM. Low reps (1-5), high sets (8 set plus) and 3 minutes rest periods increase Limit Strength.

If you you max lift is 100 lbs, then you'd want to train with 85 lbs or more.

The foundation of power and speed are built on strength. Thus, a novice will increase their power and speed, initially by increasing their strength.

However, as Stephen Johnson noted in his post, doing nothing but lifting heavy weights all the time will make you stronger but at you will become slower.

At some point, to increase your power you need to incorporate moderate loads in which drive them up with a great deal of speed.

Loads of between about 48-62% of 1 RM are recommended as a means of increasing your power in most exercises. Reseach: DANIEL BAKER, STEVEN NANCE and MICHAEL MOORE. 2001: The Load That Maximizes the Average Mechanical Power Output During Jump Squats in Power-Trained Athletes. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 15, No. 1, pp. 92–97.

Again, if your 1RM is 100 lbs, to develop power you would want to train with 48 lbs to 62 lbs for about 1-3 reps per set.

Power movements should be kept to about the same number of sets and reps as Limit Strength sets, 1-5 reps, 8 set plus, with rest sets of 3 minutes or longer.

The difference between training for Limit Strength and Power is your training percentage. Let me reiterate, for Power the load need to be between 48-60% of your 1RM and with Limit Strength training your load need to be 85% or higher of your 1RM.

In your power movement, you need to get some type of bounce out of the hole. This elicits/develops the stretch reflex.

The stretch reflex in the body acts like rubber bands. When stretched quickly the muscles stretch back faster, producing more power. Research show you can produce up to 18% more power when you use the stretch reflex.

As an example let take a standing jump. When you bob down before jumping, you elicit the stretch reflex. Doing so propels you higher/further than if you had justed from a static/dead stop position.

The same thing works in your weight training. You want to get some type of bounce out of the hole of a squat, bounce off the chest in a bench press, etc.

To maximize your strength, you want to employ limit strength, power and speed movements at some point in your training.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:27 pm 
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I re-read the post a couple of times.(A great post BTW) If i understand it correctly, to increase power and speed i should lift between 48%-62% of my limit strength, which in turn will develop power, strength and muscle. Looks like i need to chage my lifting habits! I have to be careful at my age not to get too eager! When you refer to limit strength, is that one rep in full ROM with good form. no straining?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:47 am 
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Awsome post

Is there any chance we can sticky Kenny's post. I was totally unaware of the lower weight for developing power.

Kenny, could you perhaps tidy this up a little and maybe add a summary with a few bullet points.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:18 am 
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Bob, I re=read your last post and think you might want to re-read kenny's again. The lower percentages (50-60%), down in lower reps with maximum force/speed are used to develope power. For mass, the heavier weights are used for , for lack of a better word, mass with the slower tempo's. Kenny's point being, there is no one size fits all for training methods as strength has many facets to it. As to the tempo's, lifting speeds, here is an explanation of the slower tempo's and why they are used. Keep in mind, this is from a "mass" standpoint, and is NOT necesarily the way to o for limit strength OR power.
http://www.gain-weight-muscle-fast.com/ ... ining.html
BTW, I'll PM Kenny and see what he wants to do with his posting. Good stuff as usual.
Tim


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:49 am 
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You may want to research the Westside Barbell (Louie Simmons) training methods. They incorporate power and strength into one training schedule/routine. I trained using the Westside principles years ago and I saw some awesome results (for a beginner). I've recently started implementing them again for overall strength gains.


Last edited by Hercules on Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:49 am 
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Quote:
bob wrote:
I re-read the post a couple of times.(A great post BTW) If i understand it correctly, to increase power and speed i should lift between 48%-62% of my limit strength, which in turn will develop power, strength and muscle.


Bob,

Yes, the foundation of power and speed are built on strength. Think of it like putting a stronger engine in your car. You car has more power and speed.

This gets more interesting as we go along. Loads of approximately 48-62% develop power in traditional lifts such as the squat, bench press, shoulder press, etc.

However, the problem is that power only devlops in a very small range of the movement. Research show that much of the movement is devoted to deceleration of the bar prior to lock out.

'The accompanying deceleration phases result in significantly decreased motor unit recruitment, velocity of movement, power production and compromises the effectiveness of the exercise." http://www.strengthcats.com/plyobenchpress.htm

If you didn't slow the bar down before lock out, you would get a whiplash effect.

To develop power through the full range of the exercise, the movement must be ballistic. Ballistic means that your body or the bar must become airborne. By doing so, you continue to push or pull the bar all the way through the exercise rather than putting on the brakes.

When performing ballistic jumps squats and bench press throws, loads of 10-40% of 1RM are the parameters, with 30% of 1RM considered the best for power development.

However, in Olympic pulls and jerks, loads of 70-80% produce the best power output.

An alternative to attach band and/or chains to the bar. They act as a braking device, allowing you to continue to push or pull the weight as fast as you can without having to decelerate the speed of the bar.

When using bands and/or chains, you need to calculate the bar load. You still want to keep it within the 48-62% range.

Now let's take it a step further. Power is Speed-Strength.

Speed-Strength can be broken down into two types: 1) Starting Strength and 2) Acceleration Strength.

Think of Starting Strength as first gear on your car. If you come off the line fast (from a dead stop) in your car, you have great Starting Strength.

Starting Strength is developed with plyometircs. Loads of about 10-30% of 1RM are used in exercises like the squat, bench press, etc.

Acceleration Strength is second gear on your car. If you continue to accelerate once you shift into second gear, you have great Acceleration Strength. Loads of 60% of 1RM are used to develop Acceleration-Strength. "Fundamentals of Special Strength Training" by Yuri Verkhoshansky.

Quote:
Looks like i need to chage my lifting habits! I have to be careful at my age not to get too eager!


No matter what your age, you want to ease into any new program. And why would your age be a problem?

Quote:
When you refer to limit strength, is that one rep in full ROM with good form. no straining?


Your limit strength is the measure of how much you can push or pull in a movement be it a full range or partial movement.

Limiit Strength means giving everything you've got...straining is definitely involved.

As an example, a powerlifting squat is a half squat. Thus, powerlifter measure how much limit strength the have in the half squat.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:20 am 
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I didn't mean that my age is a drawback. I enjoy workiong out, but with lots of wear and tear on the joints through years of sports and with a bad back, i need to be careful. One more thing about limit strength.Isn't that example going to change depending on the exercise? For example, my limit strength might be 150# for the bench press and 90# for a barbell curl. Or is there a standard exercise by which you measure limit strength. Tryng to get educated.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:39 am 
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Hercules wrote:
You may want to research the Westside Barbell (Louie Simmons) training methods. They incorporate power and strength into one training schedule/routine. I trained using the Westside principles years ago and I saw some awesome results (for a beginner). I've recently started implementing them again for overall strength gains.


Simmons has added a new dimension to lifting. The West Side program works and is a good one. However, Simmons often presents incorect information and training principles.

Simmons has often stated that you can develop as much power when using lighter loads in the squat and bench press as with any other lifts. This is incorrect.

Research (Dr John Garhammer) shows that the squat and bench press produce at best, 50% of the power output of the Olympic movements.

Power output of a squat is 12 watts per kilo of body weight. Olympic pulls are produce up to 52.6 watts per kilo of body weight.

Thus, squatting and bench pressing with lighter loads to develop power is tantamount to using a crescent wrench to drive a nail in a board. It work but it not the best tool for the job.

Olympic movements and other similar exercises are the equivalent of using a heavy hammer to drive a nail in a board. This is a better tool for increasing power.

In the West Side box squat, you sit back on the box, stopping the movement. Simmons states that is ok because the stretch reflex is maintained up to 4 seconds. This is incorrect.

Research shows (Wilson) that 50% of the stretch reflex is lost in one second. So, sitting back on the box kills the stretch reflex...kills power.

To evoke the streetch reflex, a quick transition from eccenttric movement to concentric contraction must take place. That means you need to have some kind of bounce out of the hole in the squat.

The poster children for power training are Olympic Lifters. They incorporate power and speed training along with limit strength training.

Olympic Lifters are some of the strongest and most powerful athletes on the plane.

A great research article that demonstrates this is:
JEFFREY M. MCBRIDE, TRAVIS TRIPLETT-MCBRIDE, ALLAN DAVIE and ROBERT U. NEWTON. 1999: A Comparison of Strength and Power Characteristics Between Power Lifters, Olympic Lifters, and Sprinters. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 13, No. 1, pp. 58–66.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:00 am 
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Quote:
bob wrote:
I didn't mean that my age is a drawback. I enjoy workiong out, but with lots of wear and tear on the joints through years of sports and with a bad back, i need to be careful.


I understand your need to be careful with a bad back.

As for as the wear and tear on the joint throught the years, I am 59. I have never had any problems from performing plyometrics and ballistic movemements as long as I didn't do something stupid.

Doing something stupid is the operative phrase. I have at time done some stupid things...it was part of my educational research.

As Einstein once said, "Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing."

What Tim, Stuward, Stephen Johnson, Ironman, KPj, etc try to do in our posting is to share training information...make sure you/others avoid some of our screw ups...:)

As someone once said, "Show me someone who's never done anything wrong and I'll show you someone who never done anything." No matter how smart you are, you going to make mistakes...it part of life.

You necessarily making mistakes. You are simply eliminating what does not work and moving closer to the answer of what does work.

I like what Billy Martin (Yankee Manager) once said, "Better to fall on your face going for the ball than fall back on your butt waiting for it to come to you."

Quote:
One more thing about limit strength.Isn't that example going to change depending on the exercise? For example, my limit strength might be 150# for the bench press and 90# for a barbell curl. Or is there a standard exercise by which you measure limit strength. Tryng to get educated.


A bench press and curl are like apple and oranges. You can only compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:36 am 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
...Simmons often presents incorect information and training principles.


I agree that not all of Simmons' suggestions are perfect. I incorporate his techniques into my training program but not to a 'T'. However, for Bob's purposes, and without getting technical, it's fine.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:50 am 
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Quote:
So what your saying kenny is that power lifting/ olympic lifting uses more muscles within the body making you have to use more energry and create energy than the typical bench squat etc because its almost a full body workout right?


Squats work the legs and back. Bench press work the shoulders, triceps, and chest. So, these exercise are not total body movements.

I break things up. I work squats one day. Bench press another. So, I don't perform a total body workout all in one training session.

Tim likes peforming a total body workout all in one session. So, there are different philosophies on training.

Complex exercises such as squats, deadlifts, bench press, bent over rows, etc involve the big muscles and more muscle groups. They are more productive exercises.

Powerlifting measures limit strength. Heavy squats, bench pressing and deadlifting build strength.

Box squats with lighter loads build power but not to the extent Olympic movements do.

I perform box squats with a slight bounce off the box to increase power. I also udtilize Olympic pulls and kettlebells swings, which are power movements.

You need to be strong in Olympic Lifting. However, much more power is required in Olympic Lifting than powerlifting.

Garhammer's and McBride's researh articles demonstrate that Olympic Lifters possess strength, power and speed.

Yessis and Hatfield noted in their plyometric training ebook that most Olympic Lifters "will usually beat the sprinter in the first 5-10 yards."
Plyometric Training-Hatfield/Yessis.

Plyometric Traiining--Hatfield/Yessis goes into a lot of what I have gone over. I have the ebook.

I can email a copy of Plyomtric Training to anyone interesed in this information.

Kenny Croxdale





I need a dude like kenny to make me a workout schedule haha mine just dont seem that...intense. haha[/quote]

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:03 pm 
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Hercules wrote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
...Simmons often presents incorect information and training principles.


I agree that not all of Simmons' suggestions are perfect. I incorporate his techniques into my training program but not to a 'T'. However, for Bob's purposes, and without getting technical, it's fine.


I agree that for Bob purpuse, it will work for the most part.

What I am saying is don't believe everything that someone writes. That includes the information that I post as well.

Make them provide research data that backs up their statement.

Then, do your own research to make sure the data is correct.

Sometimes after reading a reseach article that I question, I go to the library and look up the resources that are quoted.

I spent one afternoon at the Cal State Library in Fullerton, CA going over the resources quoted in the article.

What you often get is a better understanding, more indepth data.

You also fine out if someone is bending the information to present their view point or providing you with unbiased information.

Kenny Croxdale

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