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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:43 am 
Hi
In the last debate, my arguement was that I trained with bodypart/muscle spit routines because I enjoyed training like this. This is still true. I didn't set out to be a 'bodybuilder', I just enjoyed training like one. Now, as I have got the training 'bug', i enjoy the results just as much, if not more, than the actual training. And, giving my lack of experience (strict 2 years), I must admit that you've got me thinking....

I am specifcially referring to this article http://drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=vie ... ticleID=22 posted by George G.

I have read similar stuff, but never accepted that it might be true, being honest. So, being open minded, I would like to know more..

I have always trained to the theory that the more pain I can put myself through the better - that pain being commonly known as 'good pain'. Therefore, if i dont experience a lot of post workout pain in the muscle i worked, I am dissappointed...

Therefore, I have always thought that the more pain I get post workout, the more damage I have done and the more I will grow - providing I eat correctly.

Now i'm doubting that theory.

Are you basically saying that I can have a pain free work out, no pump, no burn, no post work out pain - when I say no, i mean no or mild pain - and still train effectively for size and strength?

I am not a beginner, would classify my self as intermediate i suppose - can someone give me an example routine?

And, if you can't technically 'feel' the effectiveness - as so many claim to do - how CAN you tell?

I would be willing to experiment, atleast for 3-6 months as it seems that is the only way I will know for sure...

Thanks

KP


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:44 am 
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forgot to log in...

KP


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:17 am 
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Well, I'm just a begginer (3 months) when it come to resistance training, but the only time I can make myself sore post workout anymore is when I miss 3 or 4 days in the gym. Most of the time I trin to or near failure, I feel the burn during the exercises and I don't think this is avoidable, plus I kinda like it. However I don't base my conclusion as to wether or not its effective on my pain levels. I base effectiveness on results. Period measurements indicate that I am putting on muscle in most every muscle group and my BF keeps dropping, I"m training effectively. One or the other stops, I'll need to make adjustments until the results come back.

That said, I think the only biofeed back I really pay attention to during my workout is my heart and sweat rate. If I don't feel my heart beating in my chest and sweat isn't pouring out of my pours, then my intesisty is slipping and I need to step it up.

When I experience joint pain, I'll stop that set and stretch, then pay closer attention to my form. If pain continues I try to find another exercise for that group. If it continues to be painful during the next session (hasn't happened yet) I'd schedule a docotor's visit and have it checked out.

Interesting topics, keep 'em comin!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:19 am 
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Heavy weight lifting that results in soreness after the workout creates small tears in the muscles, which, after healing, produce scar tissue. This is how most body builders "bulk up".

You can certainly train without the soreness, and though you will probably see the same strength gain, you won't likely see the same increase in size.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:39 am 
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lol, Blue nose, that's the arguement, what you said is what I have always believed.... But apparently, there is no "facts" to back this up, or no 'science' to back it up is a better way to put it.

Elemental - I do get results that I am happy with, although my gains have been slowing down a little recently. However, if there is a more effective way and I think it makes sense, then I would atleast give it a go for a while.... I guess what I won't to do is, put the opposing arguements from the last discussion (body part splits - your sources of information) to the test. But I don't know much about training any other way...

To quote DR Squat, in my opinion, 2 hard hitting quotes, if you think/train like I do,

" I spent several years of my life NEVER experiencing a pump. And, I grew from 165 pounds to 265 pounds without increasing my body fat percentage one bit!"

"Whatever the cause of PEMS (post exercise muscle soreness), the fact remains that it is NOT a signal of growth, but rather one of destruction! Some is unavoidable. But don’t get the idea that you have to feel excruciating pain to know growth is taking place!


KPj


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:54 am 
All effective weight training causes micro-tears in muscle tissue. That's how it works. The body repairs the damage and overcompensates to adapt. That's why one way or another you need to keep increasing the difficulty to keep making gains. Also, while not all muscle is equal, hypertrophy is closely linked to strength gains. If it wasn't Dr. Squat would still weigh 165 lbs.

However, while some muscle soarness is pretty much unavoidable, and probably even a good sign, there's a limit to how quickly muscles can adapt. As a result, creating extreme muscle soarness won't yeild any additional benefit. In fact, it can even have a negative effect in the form of overtraining.

Likewise, if I did a couple dozen sets of leg extensions my quads would probably be soar the next day, but that doesn't mean that any amount of leg extensions would provide a growth stimuli equal to a few sets of heavy squats.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:57 am 
As far as I know micro-tears do NOT result in the formation of scar tissue. I'm pretty sure you need an actual injury for scarring to occur.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:22 am 
I've learned through experience that although my muscles generally feel fully recovered after two or three days, they still benefit from a full week's rest between workouts.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:27 am 
OK, so, lets take my typical training week, not in any great detail;

Chest - 4 exercises, sets of 8-10
Back - 4 exercises, sets of 8-10
Shoulders - 3 exercises, sets of 8-10
Tri's - 3 exercises
Bi's - 3 exercises
Legs - 5 exercises, 3 sets of 8-10 (pyramid squats, 12-10-8-6, and this includes calfs)
Abs - 2 exercises

I do this over 4-5 days, the reason it is not strict in the number of days and exercises is because of my schedule at work, sometimes really busy, sometimes I'm not - so i take advantage when I can, and 'make do' when I can't.

I will generally have a chest day, arm day, back 'n' shoulders day, legs 'n' abs day - although I prefer to train back itself, then add some more abs etc after training shoulders, this is when it is 5 days.

This is very general as it changes a lot, hence, I didn't put any exercises in. I always do compound movements. Sometimes chest extends to 6 exercises, sometimes Tri's extends to 4 exercises etc etc I generally have a set routine then spend the rest of time, or energy messing around with - what i call - burn sets, which is just drop sets, up and down the rack sets etc

This is how I get myself in a lot of pain every time I train.

Now I would like to know what I "should" be doing from the people who opposed this way of training in the other discussion. Even if it is a full 'revamp' of my week, I am open minded and willing to give it a shot.

Thanks

KP


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:28 am 
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forgot to log in again....

In the above post, at the legs part I said, in brackets "this includes calfs" - for the record, I don't pyramid calfs (done it once and never again!), I meant that calfs were included in my Leg day

KP


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:27 am 
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So yes, certainly microtears do not create "scar tissue". Scar tissue is bad and is not functional and even if some think bodybuilders are weak, it is not because of scar tissue, it is from the type of training they do and the type of hypertrophy they create.

Microtears cause a breakdown in the muscle and after something breaks down, the body repairs it. Over time, because the body is designed to adapt, it creates a bigger/stronger muscle so that the muscle will not get damaged as easily. This expresses itself as increased hypertrophy which in general is correlated to some form of strength.

It can be advantageous to not weight for full recovery before training again. Specific mucle recover is important more than full body recovery, ie you cant just keep hammering hamstrings day after day but if your hamstrings are tired, no reason to not work something else. As a specific muscle reaches full recovery, you can train again. For most people this should be ~4 days. A full week to recover means your recoverability is not that splendid. So really, you should train every muscle 2 times per 8 days. Part of the problem with the "training week" is that there is no reason to repeat every 7 days. Usually, to optimize results one should train on a cycle other than 7 days. This is one reason that an alternating ABA, BAB schedule with upper/Lower splits can be so good, because it comes close to this 4 day recovery and can remain on a 7 day scheudle, which for most people is far more convenient than anything else.

Just some thoughts.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:24 pm 
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As you know the options are endless, but here is a example very similar to what I do. I will keep it general, so you can select your own exercises.

This is going to be an upper/lower split with 4 different workouts:

Day 1 - lower 1 - Quad Dominant
Quad Bilateral (Squat, Front squat, hack squat etc)
glute/Hamstring exercise (good morning, rdl)
Quad Unilateral (Lunge, split squat)
optional: isolation work, calfs

Day 2 - upper 1 - Horizontal Plane Dominant
Horizontal Push (Bench variations)
Horizontal Pullling (bent-over row, cable row etc)
Vertical Push (Shoulder press/push-press)
Vertical Pull (pull-ups/lat pulldowns)
optional: isolation work

Day 3 - lower 2 - Hip Dominant
Hip Bylaterall (Deadlift: standard, snatch grip, from blocks)
Quad Unilaterall
Step-ups, Lower back work
optional: isolation work, calfs

Day 4 - upper 4 - Vertical Plane Dominant
Vertical Push (Shoulder press/push-press)
Vertical Pull (pull-ups/lat pulldowns)
Horizontal Push (Bench variations)
Horizontal Pullling (bent-over row, cable row etc)
optional: isolation work

Sets and Reps depend on your goals. If you have been doing 4 serts 8-10 for a while try switching to 5x5

Do this workout on Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri or Mon, Wed, Fri and carry the 4th workout to next week. The beauty if this is if you are doing it 4 times a week and you miss a day, just do the workout you missed the next time you are in the gym and carry on as scheduled.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:41 pm 
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Ryan A wrote:
So yes, certainly microtears do not create "scar tissue".
Yes, they do, and building muscle is not the result of microtears.

The mechanism by which muscles increase in size, DOMS, has most recently been considered to be caused by factors other than microtears in muscle fibres, contrary to 'traditional' beliefs:
Quote:
The myofibrillar and cytoskeletal alterations observed in delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) caused by eccentric exercise are generally considered to represent damage. By contrast our recent immunohistochemical studies suggested that the alterations reflect myofibrillar remodeling
(source)
Quote:
Muscular adaptation to physical exercise has previously been described as a repair process following tissue damage. Recently, evidence has been published to question this hypothesis
(source)
However, it still seems to be accepted that DOMS is necessary for significant increases in muscle mass.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:23 pm 
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Scar tissue does not heal on its own and is non functional. If this were true, bodybuilders would be chunks of useless flesh. Creating scar tissue is how you hinder performance, and if that were true nobody would lift weights to increase performance.

Your studies say nothing about scar tissue.

In addition, calling it "remodeling" does not really change what is going on.

Your muscle receives a stimulus, it doesnt matter what it is, signal or actual deformation, and it compensates so that in the future that stimulus will not cause as much distortion or response. This is the SAID principle on the micrscopic level. SAID being Specific adaptation to imposed demand.

I still do not believe DOMS is necessary for significant inrease in muscle mass. Maybe if you want to gain 10 lbs in 2 months, you can increase the rate of muscle gain over that period by killing yourself but over the course of a few years, one can easily gain a lot of mass by not always having large amounts of DOMS. Certainly, one can get stronger without DOMS so we are basically arguing for whether or not DOMS is necessary for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

And of course my question is then, why are you trying to get sarcoplasmic hypretrophy? Unless you are going to compete in bodybuilding, or really love being sore, there is no reason to do this.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:23 pm 
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The routine I posted above definetly make me sore, but only slightly. I noticed great imptrovement in my recovery lately.


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