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 Post subject: Steroids
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:34 pm 
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Where does the truth lie when it comes to steroids and its use? There are two sides to this argument. You have doctors who say bodybuilders undermine the side effects of steroid use and you have bodybuilders who say that the side effects stated by doctors and those alike are grossly overstated. Where does the truth lie with all of this? Are they truly deadly substances or are they harmless substances when taken responsibly.

I'd like to get some feedback into this topic here: Viewpoints, possible experiences with it, use in sports, should they be legalized?

http://www.abovetheinfluence.com/facts/drugs-steroids.aspx#
I read things like this now which promise doom and gloom to all who touch the stuff and other things like the "Mitchell Report". I've discussed with you guys a little bit on it and have done research on other forums which makes me rethink a lot of things. Are they truly as bad as we are told... things like “roid rage” don't even exist and websites like that one above preach crap like that. What am I suppose to think of other drugs out there on the market. Is marijuana going to hurt you in the long run? It changed my perception on a lot of things.

To give my POV on the whole thing I don't think they are as harmful as the media tries to make it seem. What is more deadly short term, chugging 10 gallons of electrolyte free water or taking 10x normal dose of steroids? I would have to say the water. I wish I had experiences to share but I don't. Use in sports, there isn't an even playing field as it is so I could care less. Also yes, they should be legalized. It would be much safer for bodybuilders to be able to get it from a doctor than it is from a guy that you go to the gym with or off the internet. A doctor can monitor you to see if problems are arising, they can educate you to a great extent; show you how to not get hurt. You are guaranteed to be getting the real thing. No dirty needles no potentially deadly fake steroids. Wasted effort would be saved making them legal.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:18 pm 
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I don't think that steroids should be used to enhance sports performance. If I were a pro athlete who stood to make many millions of dollars if I could up my performance, I (honestly) might be singing a different tune. But for the overwhelming majority of people involved in sports, performance is secondary. What's really important is to learn how to sacrifice and struggle to attain goals individually and learning teamwork collectively. These lessons can be carried on to other endeavors in life even after you've hung up your cleats. Steroids are a quick and dirty way to achieve goals without having to really work for them.

Besides, the majority of steroid users that I've met aren't people that I want to be around in the gym, anyway. They're not much different than the druggies that I went to high school with.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:19 am 
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Well, steroids do have a purpose other than sports performance, and can be a very valuable tool for people that need to rehab from very dramatic trauma. And for that purposes, they can be obtained and administered by physicians. I tend to have a more lenient outlook on them, because back in my younger days, they didn't have the stigma and penalities around them like they do today. They could be obtained by prescription fairly easily and several athletes Iwas around took them, had them administered by a physician and had them carefully monitored. That said, I never personally saw any bad behaviour, or physical problems (however, what I'm describing was short term useage) Us restlers never used because we didn't want the horrors of moving up in weightclasses. So, physically, I'm not against it, and while I wouldn't claim them to be totally harmless, I thoroughly believe that if used responsibly, in the correct doseages, and properly monitored, they're fairly safe. However, first and foremost, without that prescription, and they're hard to get now, they are a feloney, and I just don't see risking that to gain a few inches, or a few feet on a throw. Secondly, you have the ethical question to deal with, and most people would consider them an unfair advantage performance wise. They definately provide an advantage, regardless of what some of the early on physicians might have suggested.
Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:17 am 
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I personally am dead-set against steroids being used by athelets to increase sports performance WHILE competing against other honest, disciplined, hardworking atheletes/peers. I don't know what the solution to this is other than tougher laws, strict and consistant governing bodies and more frequent testing. Perhaps we need to set up separate "drug-free" and "juiced-up" leagues for each sport so that we are always comparing apples to apples? I don't know. But i know that i don't like the idea of an athelete being able to shortcut his way to success. I equate to pretending to be physically limited in some way in order to compete in the special olympics and clean up in the medal race.

As far as medicinal use - i have personal experience with this and have seen the benefits when properly and correctly used under strict medical supervision. I am all for this - 100%. I equate this to heroin/morphine - under the right circumstances, they have medicinal value - under other parameters they are highly addictive and high risk recreational drugs.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:29 am 
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Hoister wrote:
Perhaps we need to set up separate "drug-free" and "juiced-up" leagues for each sport so that we are always comparing apples to apples?
End Quote

That was (and probably still is-with all the masking agents around and new designer stuff showing up) a big problem in PL in the US. It got so bad that in 1979, they actually set up a PL federation (ADFPA-American drug free PL association) because of this. Others followed. The main two feds at the time had various different testing (or non testing) regulations and varied quite a bit in enforcing them, not to mention they had different ideas on juding, equipment standards, etc. Kind of like comparing Apples to who knows what. I predict its going to be a while before it's ever on a level playing field.
Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:35 am 
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It;s very funny that people say steroids are cheating. That its the dirty way to get somewhere or the easy way. So I guess this is how steroids work. You get a needle you shoot some roids in your ass then WHAM your bigger stronger and faster than anyone without the effort!!! WRONG I have never taken them but seen atheletes who did it didnt change them that much. Yes they got bigger faster and stronger the only thing I seen that steroids did was up the plateu. I think steroids should be legalised I think if you want to play in sports ala mlb where hitting homeruns gets viewers then why not? Anyone remember Mark McGuire? If i spelled his name right? He used roids how much money did he bring to the MLB? If you have faster stronger bigger atheletes more people would watch. I watch already I vote make em legal but watch them with dr's im right there with ironmaiden.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:10 am 
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TimD wrote:

"That was (and probably still is-with all the masking agents around and new designer stuff showing up) a big problem in PL in the US. It got so bad that in 1979, they actually set up a PL federation (ADFPA-American drug free PL association) because of this. Others followed. The main two feds at the time had various different testing (or non testing) regulations and varied quite a bit in enforcing them, not to mention they had different ideas on juding, equipment standards, etc. Kind of like comparing Apples to who knows what. I predict its going to be a while before it's ever on a level playing field. "

You're probably right on that one, TimD.

Iron/Coreless - i am not about to engage in this discussion any further because it usually goes around and around endlessly. I guess my personal point on this topic is that i would prefer to put in the time and energy to get to where i want to go naturally because that is what i am passionate about. I love the feeling of hitting personal goals by my own hardwork and dedication. That's it really.

I believe that there are risks and benefits with ANYTHING that you do and the approach you take. I guess my gut tells me that the roid-route has added risk that i am not willing to take and don't see that the rewards are "great-enough" to accept those risks.

Just my $0.02.


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 Post subject: Re: Steroids
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:33 am 
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Quote:
ironmaiden708 wrote:
Where does the truth lie when it comes to steroids and its use?


Steriod use is more of a morality issue, NOT medical one.

Bryant Gumble's "Real Sports" states in "The Science of Steriods or the LACK of IT, "American's, when drugs are concerned, rarely chose logic when the can opt for hysteria."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0LEj8IPHGU&feature=related

"Where are the bodies?" As per John Romano/Editdor of Muscular Development.

Dr Norm Fost, a medical doctor, has presented information at an American Medical Association seminar, stating the same. The health risk with steriod use is minimal.

After viewing Dr Fost AMA seminar on steriods, I contacted about purchasing a video copy of it. Dr Fost informed me that is was unavailable.

However, Dr Fost did email me research articles that he had written that there is very little, if any health risk with steriods, when taken.

Gumble's "Real Sports goes on to report that The New England Journal of Medicine and The National Institue of Health ("our own goverment") back up Dr Fost and John Romano.

As someone who took them from 1977-1987, I never had any majory health problems with them. In powerlifting, back then, they were just part of the program.

During that time period and thirty years later (1977-2007), none of the lifters that I was associated with have experienced any health problems.

If anyone would like Dr Fost articles on steriod, email me:

KennyCrox@aol.com

Kenny Croxdale

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:43 am 
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Quote:
Steroids are a quick and dirty way to achieve goals without having to really work for them.


Stephen, steriods certainly promote strength and muscle gain. However, I guarantee that you still have to work.

If you truely you didn't have "to really work..." Then you could just sit on take them do nothing more than sit on the sofa watching TV and become bigger and stronger, over night.

As for as being a "dirty way." The goverment's outlawing them has pushed them into the dark dark allies of society.

As Tim noted as does "Real Sports," the hve been put back in the light with Anit Aging Clinics.

Quote:
Besides, the majority of steroid users that I've met aren't people that I want to be around in the gym, anyway. They're not much different than the druggies that I went to high school with.


While there are some sinister individuals who probably do take them, that does not represent all those that do take them.

I guarantee that you probably have met some steriods useers who were for the most were normal individuals who would prefer not to divulge that information. That because steriod use is politically incorrect...it a moral issue.

And as we know "moral issues" are debatable topics. The outcome usually being the neither side changes their mind.

Kenny Croxdale

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:07 am 
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Quote:
Perhaps we need to set up separate "drug-free" and "juiced-up" leagues for each sport so that we are always comparing apples to apples?


This is a good idea. In fact, one of the powerlifting federations had this at one time, so to speak.

They had a "Drug Free" division and a "We don't ask questions" division.

While the idea is sound, an athlete participating in the "Drug" division would catch a lot of heat and quickly be black balled in society.

Quote:
As far as medicinal use - i have personal experience with this and have seen the benefits when properly and correctly used under strict medical supervision. I am all for this - 100%.


As I stated in one of my other post, I took them from 1977-1987. I am neither proud or ashamed of it. I suspect that I may have more "hand on experience/knowedge" than you...and probably anyone on this board.

On another board that I post on, there are individuals on that board that lifted in the same era as I did. They took more and know more than I do.

However, in a previous discussion on that board, neither of these two world champion powerlfiters entered the discussion. I doubt that they wanted to be "Politically Incorrect"...or catch any heat.

Quote:
I equate this to heroin/morphine -


This is an overstatment. Steriod NEVER have been in the same catagory as heroin or morphine.

Quote:
under the right circumstances, they have medicinal value - under other parameters they are highly addictive and high risk recreational drugs


Certainly, having the right medical supervision works best. However, medical doctors don't want be black listed or create problems for themselves.

So, most athletes usually learn from those who have practical experience and by reading book and articles. This can be even more effective than being under a medical doctor with a limited knowledge of steroids.

The problem is that to really know what is going on, blood work need to be performed by a medical doctor.

Steriods are NOT "highly addictive" and there is little "high risk" involved in taking them.

What I have a problem with is the presentation of mis-information on any topic. Let's stick to the facts.

Kenny Croxdale

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:16 am 
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Quote:
If anyone would like Dr Fost articles on steriod, email me:

KennyCrox@aol.com

I will email you later, this should be a great read.

Quote:
Steroids are a quick and dirty way to achieve goals without having to really work for them.

That just isn't true. The talent has to be there. Thats like saying you can pass a AP physics exam without ever studying the material. It's more of a way of taking a athlete and pushing them over the top.

Quote:
Perhaps we need to set up separate "drug-free" and "juiced-up" leagues for each sport so that we are always comparing apples to apples?
Doesn't that already exist in bodybuilding?

Quote:
Besides, the majority of steroid users that I've met aren't people that I want to be around in the gym, anyway. They're not much different than the druggies that I went to high school with.

That can't said about everyone.

Quote:
I love the feeling of hitting personal goals by my own hardwork and dedication.

Then that is rightfully your choice, that is not the same goal as all OCD athletes (as Kenny described them) that are out there. Your field eventers I'm sure would love to get their hands on juice legally.

Quote:
What I have a problem with is the presentation of mis-information on any topic. Let's stick to the facts.

This is what I'm referring to when I comes to even drugs. They say marijuana use (which I don't do) makes your lazy, stupid, suck at life kind of person. But those effects only last as long as the person is 'high' then they are back to their old selfs. They make it seem like everyone who touches the stuff stays like that but really the people who tend to tamper with it tend to not be very motivated anyways.

When have athletics ever been fair? You have teams who have the best coaches, trainers, technology, players, all of those things can be bought with enough cash. Look at the Yankees or any teams in the MLB.


Last edited by ironmaiden708 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:26 am 
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TimD wrote:
Hoister wrote:
Perhaps we need to set up separate "drug-free" and "juiced-up" leagues for each sport so that we are always comparing apples to apples?
End Quote

That was (and probably still is-with all the masking agents around and new designer stuff showing up) a big problem in PL in the US. It got so bad that in 1979, they actually set up a PL federation (ADFPA-American drug free PL association) because of this. Others followed. The main two feds at the time had various different testing (or non testing) regulations and varied quite a bit in enforcing them, not to mention they had different ideas on juding, equipment standards, etc. Kind of like comparing Apples to who knows what. I predict its going to be a while before it's ever on a level playing field.
Tim


Tell me about it, Tim. There's more federations than lifters. As someone looking to compete in PL for the first time, I don't even know where to start. Really pi$$e$ me off about the sport.

I'm on the fence with lifting gear, I wish their was one standard for gear, and a raw federation. And wish they would just make up their mind about roids.

I'm also on the fence with steriods. I have no desire at all to take them myself. But I can't help but think of the guys with very low test who dream everyday of being much bigger, stronger, or whatever. If that were me, then I would probably feel cheated to the extent that I would even the score by going on steriods.

I also believe the side affects are blown out of proportion. They normally are with just about anything I can think of... Creatine, Protein, Soy (lol)...


KPj


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:30 am 
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Quote:
Creatine

My doctor decided to tell me last year during a checkup about how dangerous it was to using Creatine. You know that 'abdominal wind' can get pretty dangerous at times... She was preaching the kidney damage BLAH BLAH BLAH.


Last edited by ironmaiden708 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:43 am 
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corless319_ wrote:
Anyone remember Mark McGuire?.


The writers who vote players into the Baseball Hall of Fame don't remember McGwire - he failed dismally on his first try at being inducted, despite stellar career records:

Quote:
Mark McGwire’s Hall of Fame bid was met with a rejection as emphatic as his upper-deck home runs.

While the door to Cooperstown swung open for Cal Ripken Jr. and Tony Gwynn on Tuesday, McGwire was picked by less than a quarter of voters — a result that raises doubts about whether Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa or other sluggers from baseball’s Steroids Era will ever gain entry.

McGwire, whose 583 home runs rank seventh on the career list, appeared on 128 of a record 545 ballots in voting released Tuesday by the Baseball Writers’ Association of America.

The 23.5 percent vote McGwire received represented the first referendum on how history will judge an age when bulked-up players came under suspicion of using performance-enhancing drugs. Baseball didn’t ban steroids until after the 2002 season.


Of course, that's not as bad as what happened to Marion Jones:

Quote:
Her reputation is gone and now so are Marion Jones' Olympic medals.

Jones gave back the five medals she won at the Sydney Olympics on Monday and agreed to forfeit all other results dating back to Sept. 1, 2000, further punishment for her admission that she was a drug cheat.

The three gold medals and two bronzes were turned over to U.S. Olympic Committee and U.S. Anti-Doping Agency officials at her attorneys' office in Austin, Texas. They are en route to USOC headquarters in Colorado Springs, and the USOC will return them to the International Olympic Committee.


People who use drugs to set records are respected only if they don't get caught. If they get caught, the "records" that they set are either ignored or taken away.

There is a place for steroid use - for medical conditions, under strict doctor supervision. But not in competitive sports. Any athlete competing in the upcoming Olympics uses steroids at his/her own risk.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:19 pm 
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In Memoriam: TimD
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Ironmaiden-you mentioned creatine. That's a substance that really got some very bad unsubstantiated press. I can remember seeing a couple of TV shows where they likened it to steroid use, yada, yada, yada.

KPJ, yeah, I'm on the fence with equipment, chemical assistance myself. No, I don't think it's inherently dangerous at all, and said so in my previous stuff. To get a level playing field though, different story. Across the pond here in the US, last I looked into it, you can find a federation that will cater to your preferences. kenny might even be knowledgeable about them over there in the UK. Last I heard you could even join the AAU and find RAW meets (belt is allowed though). If someone wants to wear a bench shirt where they can barely move, and need the bar loaded up so heavily just in order to get it down to chest level, hey, I'm good with that. I just choose not to. )not an exageration-I actually saw this a couple of times). Anyway, I thought the BAWLA controlled it over there?
Tim


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