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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:50 am 
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Matt Z wrote:
The way I see it, steroids are like any other class of perscription drug. They all have risks and side effects (some worse than others).


Exactly.

Quote:
For someone with a legitamate disease or disorder, the benefits often justify these risks, but for healthy men and women it's difficult to make that argument.


The same could be said about many over the counter supplements. Does a health individual really need to take creatine, etc?

What this comes down to is that steriods for health adults is more of a moral issue.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:58 am 
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Also long term study on it to know what actual long term effects are would help. A lot of people msyelf included are afraid of roids I don't know how they effect people. I don't know what it would do to me. I assume I'd get bigger and stronger but longevity and being healthy to me is very important.


As John Romano stated in "Real Sports," "Show me the bodies." Dr Norm Fost said much the same in, "Where is the beef?...meaning show me data that the long term effects are cause health problems.

Certainly, there are some risk. Howeveer, the risk is probably less than driving in your car on the freeway.

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Steroids are like religion and politics a very touchy subject.


Bingo. And part of the problem is the mis-information regarding them.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:21 am 
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What about the legal, social and economic consequences?


There are some legal implications with them. Those legal implications are due to the goverment trying to legislate morality.

None the less, Is the legal risk worth it?

The social issue is again, one of morality from the uneducated public. The public has been provided with news "sound bits" that steroids are deadly. This is not true.

The only econmonmic consequences is the goverment getting involved in professional sports...like with Roger Clemens.

American needs to devote more time and money to solving the "Recession" and the War than worrying about which athletes are taking what.

Quote:
If you are caught using steroids, you could be convicted of a felony.


That is a big "If."

Quote:
But even if you aren't convicted, employer knowledge of your involvement with illegal drugs could jeopardize your job. If you have a family to support, it is irresponsibly


I agree, "Is it worth the risk?"

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vain for you to risk your livelihood just on the desire to look better physically.


Vanity is part of what keep people going to gyms, getting cosmetic surgeery, women putting on make up, men and women buying nice clothes, cars, etc.

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There is almost zero probablility that a Joe Six Pack can get a legit medical doctor to prescribe him steroids just for the sake of looking better. Anyone who seeks steroids will be forced to get them in the black market, where he has to come in contact with criminal elements. There , he runs the risk of getting ripped off or getting contaminated gear. And if his dealer goes down, the dealer will take Joe Six Pack with him.


The "Anti Aging Clinics" can and do prescribe them. I have several friends who are on "Hormone Replacement Therapy"...not me though.

The black market is one of the reasons they should be allowed to be prescribed by a physician...my moral view. Inso doing, you are better able to control their use and tax them.

As for a dealer taking down "Joe Six Pack," the government is not too concerned with that small fish.

Years ago, a friend of mine was questioned in regard to where he got Growth Hormone. The agent wasn't concerned with him, they wanted to get the distributor.

Quote:
But if anyone still wants to take steroids to look good, cool. Just hope that you don't end up looking good in jail.


I doubt a user would go to jail. However, there would definitely be some legal and social problems.

So, were back to, "Is it worth the risk?" I personally question that myself.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:26 am 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The only econmonmic consequences is the goverment getting involved in professional sports...like with Roger Clemens.


The economic consequences that I was referring to, like the legal and social consequences, were personal not societal. If I lost my job due to steroid usage, the net impact to society would be minimal, but to me would be devastaing.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Vanity is part of what keep people going to gyms, getting cosmetic surgeery, women putting on make up, men and women buying nice clothes, cars, etc.


None of those things are illegal. Steroid use is. If vanity leads you to break the law, it isn't healthy.

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The "Anti Aging Clinics" can and do prescribe them. I have several friends who are on "Hormone Replacement Therapy"...not me though.


I fully expect one day to hear a story how an aging Baby Boomer who wins a Masters athletic competition is discovered to have gotten performance enhancing drugs from an anti-aging clinic. If anti aging clinics dispense performance enhancing drugs indiscriminately, there will be investigations.

Until the law is changed - and I don't sense much of a groundswell for that - perfomance enhancing drugs are illegal except for medically approved reasons. The safety of the drugs used for non-medically approved reasons isn't the issue for law-abiding people. The legality is.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:03 am 
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Why isn't that law enforcement officers arn't going after competing bodybuilders? ex: Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman. I don't think people are out to try and get rid of all steroid 'abusers'. They shouldn't either, they arn't manaces, if they are it's because of their lousy personailities.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:36 am 
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The most important questions are. Who came up with the idea of making steroids illegal and why? If it just makes you bigger and stronger why cant we use and or buy them? It's our body why cant we inject what we want? If a pregnant lady can abort a kid because she just doesn't want it why can't someone put something into their body that doesnt have proven negative consequences? They say Chris benoit went into roid rage and killed his entire family? I think he was messed in the head, big time. Seriously though who made it illegal and why? Why isnt niccotine illegal? Niccotine hooks more people on ciggarettes and kills them with many forms of problems and they have commercials for cigarettes. Well I haven't seen any recently but millions die from that and that doesnt help ANYTHING. Completely negative. I don't know.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:34 pm 
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You might be right about deca, Kenny. I have noticed that frequently people blow the side effects out of proportion. It could be mild and only affect people who are prone to it. The good effects are blown out of proportion too.

You always hear about people on a testosterone who had to take an AI because they started getting gynecomastia, and gaining 30 pounds of muscle (not counting fat and water gain) over a 12 week cycle. But I know plenty of people who took injectable testosterone since it is the recommended first cycle. Then when you talk to them, you find out they just had a little acne and water retention, and only gained 10 pounds of muscle or so.

I am really starting to think all affects good or bad of all steroids is exaggerated a little.

Post cycle therapy is kind of recent thing that is currently standard in the bodybuilding community. It gets natural test back as fast as possible to keep you from loosing muscle when you end your cycle. It wasn't around when you were doing it in the 70's/80's.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:05 am 
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Quote:
The economic consequences that I was referring to, like the legal and social consequences, were personal not societal. If I lost my job due to steroid usage, the net impact to society would be minimal, but to me would be devastaing.


An obession to that extent is always going to be a problem. The same could occur with someone with a gambling problem, etc.

Quote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Vanity is part of what keep people going to gyms, getting cosmetic surgeery, women putting on make up, men and women buying nice clothes, cars, etc.


None of those things are illegal. Steroid use is. If vanity leads you to break the law, it isn't healthy.


If one is so vain they are driven to do so, that is an obsession...psycholigical problem.

My point being that if your that vanity obessive, if you are using steriods, you be like Michael Jackson with all his plastic surgeeries or doing something else.

Quote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The "Anti Aging Clinics" can and do prescribe them. I have several friends who are on "Hormone Replacement Therapy"...not me though.


I fully expect one day to hear a story how an aging Baby Boomer who wins a Masters athletic competition is discovered to have gotten performance enhancing drugs from an anti-aging clinic. If anti aging clinics dispense performance enhancing drugs indiscriminately, there will be investigations.


I suspect that one of my friends goes to the Anti Aging clinic just for that reason.

I am sure there probably will be some type of incident, as you described, That has/will happen in any business or occupation there is. It the nature of people.

Quote:
Until the law is changed - and I don't sense much of a groundswell for that - perfomance enhancing drugs are illegal except for medically approved reasons.


I too, doubt that the will ever be legal across the board. However, the Anti Aging Clinics are the grey area in which there is a bit of a loop hole, in my view point.

No matter what you outlaw, there will always be individuals who buy it.

Quote:
The safety of the drugs used for non-medically approved reasons isn't the issue for law-abiding people. The legality is


That is the crazy part of this. The is no evidence that there are health problems when used properly.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:48 am 
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Quote:
Ironman wrote:
You might be right about deca, Kenny. I have noticed that frequently people blow the side effects out of proportion. It could be mild and only affect people who are prone to it. The good effects are blown out of proportion too.


All the steriod informatin in book and ariticles states that it is mild.

From my past personal use of it and my knowledge of others who used it, I can tell you first hand it is mild.

The good effects are pretty much "on target," if you are refering to the gains in size and strength that an individual makes.

Quote:
You always hear about people on a testosterone who had to take an AI because they started getting gynecomastia, and gaining 30 pounds of muscle (not counting fat and water gain) over a 12 week cycle. But I know plenty of people who took injectable testosterone since it is the recommended first cycle. Then when you talk to them, you find out they just had a little acne and water retention, and only gained 10 pounds of muscle or so.


Now that you mentioned it, there was a lifter that I know that got gynecomastia, Jamie Safdarania.

Water retension is more of a problem with dianabol and anadrol. I never took anadrol.

I did take dianabol. With dianabol, you soak up water like a sponge.
That is a good/bad thing.

The good part is the "cell voluminizing" effect, much like what many get with creatine. That superhydration effect makes you stronger.

The down side is for someone with hypertension problems, your blood pressure goes up. That was a problem that I had.

Quote:
I am really starting to think all affects good or bad of all steroids is exaggerated a little.


The muscle building effects are true. As a buddie of mine who played for
Arinzon once stated when ask if there were any side effecs, "Yea, the make you stonger than hell."

Quote:
Post cycle therapy is kind of recent thing that is currently standard in the bodybuilding community. It gets natural test back as fast as possible to keep you from loosing muscle when you end your cycle. It wasn't around when you were doing it in the 70's/80's.


HCG and Clomid make sense. However, I never had any problem when coming off, nor did I see any else have any problems.

Your strength and size drop. It similar to not working out for a month.

As I remember, they were around. But back then we didn't know as much. There were no books and very few articles on this stuff.

You learned from the guys at the gym, like Jerry Weathers, who had been using it for a long time.

Most of the "geneeric" information that I learned from those guys is still true today.

However, the dosages now being used are much higher. I was much more connservative in the dosages that I used.

Nelson Montana wrote "Steriods For Health" on t-mag.com I am more in his camp on being a bit more conservative in the dosage and length of time you are on them.

Here is the ariticle:
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/anabo ... -steroids-
health.html

Cy Willson, who writes for t-mag.com, wrote an upgrade to Montana's article. I like Wilson's approach as well.

However, t-mag has updated their site and I have not been able to locate Wilson's article. The article is there some place.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:18 pm 
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Kenny I sent you an email 3 days ago requesting a copy of the Dr. Fost articles. If for some reason you didn't get it my email is OMITED .


Last edited by ironmaiden708 on Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:19 pm 
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[quote="ironmaiden708"]Kenny I sent you an email 3 days ago requesting a copy of the Dr. Fost articles. If for some reason you didn't get it.

I just emailed it to you. If you don't get it, let me know.

Kenny

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:12 pm 
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You know spammers harvest e-mail off web pages don't you? You should probably put your e-mail in like name at domain dot com, rather than name@domain.com.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:31 pm 
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I just emailed it to you. If you don't get it, let me know.


Thanks a lot I got the email


Quote:
You know spammers harvest e-mail off web pages don't you? You should probably put your e-mail in like name at domain dot com, rather than name@domain.com.

Good point but I felt I had no choice. Ill remove it now and can you remove my email from Kennys post. Thanks


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:08 am 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
That is the crazy part of this. The is no evidence that there are health problems when used properly.


The same is true for prescription drugs. But many people DON'T use them properly:

Quote:
Prescription Drug Abuse

Most people take medicines only for the reasons their doctors prescribe them. But an estimated 20 percent of people in the United States have used prescription drugs for nonmedical reasons. This is prescription drug abuse. It is a serious and growing problem.

Abusing some prescription drugs can lead to addiction. You can develop an addiction to:

* Narcotic painkillers
* Sedatives and tranquilizers
* Stimulants

Experts don't know exactly why this type of drug abuse is increasing. The availability of drugs is probably one reason. Doctors are prescribing more drugs for more health problems than ever before. Online pharmacies make it easy to get prescription drugs without a prescription, even for youngsters.

National Institute on Drug Abuse


If steroids were readily available by prescription, one could imagine soccer moms and baseball dads all over the country giving steroids to their kids so that their kids can make the team.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:23 am 
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Quote:
Stephen Johnson wrote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
That is the crazy part of this. The is no evidence that there are health problems when used properly.


The same is true for prescription drugs. But many people DON'T use them properly:


This staement could be paraphrased to the use of cars, guns, etc.

It reminds me of when Adlai Stevenson was running for President. A lady told him "All the thinking people are behind you."

Stevenson replied, I agree. However, I need a majority to win.

The inference being the majority of people on this planet DON'T think.

Quote:
Quote:
Prescription Drug Abuse

Most people take medicines only for the reasons their doctors prescribe them. But an estimated 20 percent of people in the United States have used prescription drugs for nonmedical reasons. This is prescription drug abuse. It is a serious and growing problem.

Abusing some prescription drugs can lead to addiction. You can develop an addiction to:

* Narcotic painkillers
* Sedatives and tranquilizers
* Stimulants


Experts don't know exactly why this type of drug abuse is increasing. The availability of drugs is probably one reason. Doctors are prescribing more drugs for more health problems than ever before. Online pharmacies make it easy to get prescription drugs without a prescription, even for youngsters.

National Institute on Drug Abuse


I understand. However, there is NO physical addiction to steriods. It is more of a mental addiction.

That mental addiction is NOT caused steriods. It is caused by the mental problem of the individual.

I guarantee these mentally disturbed individuals are going to have some issues with something.

Quote:
If steroids were readily available by prescription, one could imagine soccer moms and baseball dads all over the country giving steroids to their kids so that their kids can make the team.


First of all, these parent would be in the minority. Very few parent would do that.

However, there is always going to be a percentage of individuals in any group that are irresponsible. That is a fact.

By NOT regulating them, you subject those kids and adults who are going to use them to do so via the "dark alleys."

And I guarantee, if they want them bad enough, they are going to get them.

I only advocate thay be make available to adults, not kids. I provided my reasons in a previous post.

All we are doing is rehasing old information...and as with any "moral Issue"...neither one of us is going to change their minds.

I have offered to provide those interested in Dr Fost examination of the research on this subject. Fost also examines the "moral issues."

However, only two individuals have accepted my offer and had me email them this information.

I suspect the remainder of those on this board already have their minds make. Thus, the lack of interest in my offer.

Thus, this discussion is a fruitless endeavor.

Kenny Croxdale

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