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 Post subject: Vince Gironda 8x8
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:52 pm 
Sorry if this has been posted already, but what do you guys think of Gironda's 8x8 principle for fat-loss? I'm currently fairly lean (11%-12% Body fat), but I want to dip down to below 10%. Ulimately my goal is to retain my lean-body mass and strength while losing fat. I have been following this program for 2 weeks already, and it is very challenging. My diet is pretty clean right now and do some light morning cardio 2-3 times a week. Here is a link for reference

http://www.fitren.com/?doc=article&aid=90

Thanks


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:11 am 
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Having read the article, I have a few reservations:

1) He says repeatedly that this is for advanced bodybuilder, in fact, that exact phrase occurs 5 times in the article.

2) You will probably be hard-pressed to get all of one of his sample workouts to fit into an hour.

3) I'm not sure I see how the progression system works. He says if you do 8x8 all the way through, not failing early then you should add weight, but how does one evaluate the in between sets rest period? If I do 8x8 with 25 second rest at 30 pounds should I move up to trying 8x8 with 25 secs and 35 pounds, 8x8 with 30 pounds with 20 secs or 8x8 with 35lbs and 20 secs. Having to vary two things adds to the complexity (and possibly the confusion).

That said, I find the program exceedingly interesting, in fact, it reminds me of this training program from Muscle and Fitness:

http://www.muscleandfitness.com/training/46

But maybe the similarities are merely cosmetic.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:08 am 
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Is it the training or the diet?

Vince Gironda's Stone Age Diet


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:49 am 
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Stephen Johnson wrote:
Is it the training or the diet?

Vince Gironda's Stone Age Diet


I think he was asking about the training, but the diet in your site seems to be a better way to lean out. I mean, if the same guy whose training program he's about to follow is saying leaning out is 80% diet, then I think it's evident he should change his diet first. Maybe not to the 'stone age diet' itself, but an improvement at least.
Again, this 8x8 is now showing up as 10x10, which is similar to the 'century' thing I posted. I think the idea here is to get a cardio workout lifting, but I'm beginning to guess that there isn't much value in it as far as growing goes. We all say that not much is gained marginally after the first set, and it basically stops paying off after the third... I don't see how 10 at 50%1RM could overload your muscles. Except maybe the heart, which would be getting a good workout from such a program. You'll only feel muscle fatigue because you've exhausted all your muscles built up fuel, which in my mind makes it seems like longer recoveries are in store. As far as evaluating this as a lifting program, I think it's bunk, but as a cardio/slimming program, I think it has value.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:01 pm 
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DubDub wrote:
I think he was asking about the training, but the diet in your site seems to be a better way to lean out


That's my point - If you're trying to lose weight, exercise plays a secondary role. An important role, to be sure - but strictly secondary to diet.

As I've said earlier, low carb diets are effective for losing weight in the short run. But I have problems with staying on them for a long period of time, and the safety issue hasn't been resolved to my satisfaction. A variation of the Zone/South Beach diet, which allows larger amounts of low glycemic carbs has been easier to follow.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:12 pm 
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Just a few notes on Gironda. He used to publish in the old Ironman magazine, then run by Peary Rader. Interesting old coot. Had some very original ideas. Stephen's link told some of the diet, but left a few things out. Gironda was running his athletes on what would be known later as a CKD, or cyclical ketogenic diet. His was 4 days of basically meat, leaves, berries, don't worry at all about fat content, and on the 5th day, you would hold the fat, and bring carbs up to moderate, then repeat. When I got out of the Army in 73, and got back to the States, I was going to school in the LA area, and actually visited his gym (then in Burbank) just to check out what it was all about. His routines are basically geared towards aesthetics, and you had to be invited in to work out there. He made no bones at all about it, and if he didn't like what you were doing, he'd toss you.His clients ere actors and bodybuilders trying to get into contest shape. And he did it very well.
As to training, well the link Stephen posted has a link in it to Poliquin's German Volume Training, which is very similar to gironda's 8X8, and Poliquin even mentions that he doesn't know if the Europeans came up with it first, or if Gironda did. I can tell you this about it. I did try the GVT as written by Poliquin, and went through the whole thing. You have to read it carefully. It's not all 10X10. During the high volume phases, with short rest breaks, I leaned up quite a bit. In the lower volume, much higher intensity phases, I did in fact get some size and a lot of strength, and that was at age 46. To paraphrase it briefly (but read the link) you do 4-5 cycles of 10X10, starting with around 60% 1RM, then go to a program of your choosing and work up to a couple of heavy sets per bodypart/lift for 3-4 weeks. At that point, you come back to the high volume, but this time at around 70%, and do 10X6 for a couple of cycles, and finally, finish off with a very intense , lower volume program, in which I choose the waed 1-6. You work up to a heavy but soable single, drop some weight , get 6reps, back to a single heavier than your first, then back to 6 but heavier than your first set of 6.
Not a bad program at all if that's what you're into.
Tim


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:25 pm 
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Tim

Thanks for the info - I didn't check out the Poliquin link


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:56 pm 
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TimD wrote:
His routines are basically geared towards aesthetics, and you had to be invited in to work out there. He made no bones at all about it, and if he didn't like what you were doing, he'd toss you. His clients ere actors and bodybuilders trying to get into contest shape. And he did it very well.
Tim


I can see that happening, but that's not what I'm personally into, and I don't the the topic starter really needs this type of training.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:45 pm 
Thanks for the replies. I am mainly cutting just for aesthetics. Aside from eating, should I follow a low rep, high intensity, heavier weights or continue on the high rep, high intensity, lighter weights for fat loss? I'm not seeking to gain much mass from the program, but I am more concerned with maintaining strength and lean muscle.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:06 pm 
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bb wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I am mainly cutting just for aesthetics. Aside from eating, should I follow a low rep, high intensity, heavier weights or continue on the high rep, high intensity, lighter weights for fat loss? I'm not seeking to gain much mass from the program, but I am more concerned with maintaining strength and lean muscle.


You should stick with high rep, high intensity, lighter weights, and short rest periods, as this will keep your heartrate elevated during your workout, turning it into cardio exercise.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:39 pm 
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Well, training can definately influence fat loss, and Dub Dub is right with the short rest periods. There have been plenty of studies over the years by exercise physiologists (Berger, Stone, Kraemer, Fleck just to name a few( that show this. The models they came up with is a work duration of 45-70 seconds, rest duration of 40-60 seconds, with an intensity of loading at around around 65-70%. Translated, for most people, this means around 10-12 reps, give or take. What they found were elevated gh levels being generated in the test subjects, more so than with subjects using other protocols. Natural gh stimulation does several things, it genrated maint/repair /building of muscle tissue, sets loose hormones for fat burning, and in effect, jacks up the metabolism. Diet, however , is key. Stay within these parameters and you'll be on the right track. Could be anyscheme you come up with, and Gironda's will work, but it's not for beginners. A simpler method would be to do circuits at a quick pace using compound moves. Example, circuit one, 3X through DL, overhead press, chin. Rest a few minutes, then circuit 2, Squat, BP, row for 2 or 3 go throughs.
Tim


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