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 Post subject: Excessive protein
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:57 am 
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n00b
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Location: Devon, UK
I saw a TV programme last night on the life of Arnold Scharzenegger, spanning from his days working out in the East end of London to becoming the Govenor of California. During an interview with the bloke who put him up in London he mentioned that Arnold used to "get out of bed, eat his 8 egg breakfast and roll into the gym". Now when i heard this, firstly i struggled to believe that you could eat 8 eggs for breakfast, then i got on to thinking about the repercussions on his liver.
From what i understand your liver helps breakdown proteins into essential amino acids that are used all over the body. I also understand that you can 'overload' and cause damage to your liver by intaking too much protein. So how do people like Arnie and others who consume large quantities of protein manage to not damage their liver? is their a set amount that your liver can convert in one go or over a certain amount of time? or are they plainly just not caring about it?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:32 am 
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I'm not aware that eating lots of protein will cause problems with the liver or kidneys. I think most of the research has been done on people with pre existing liver and kidney problems and that too much protein for them exhaserbates the existing problems by taxing these organs. So if you have a problem with your liver or kidney caution may be advised and checking with your doctor recommended. Also, unless the liver is misfunctioning any protein that is above and beyond what you need is excreted in your urine. Passed right through. If your liver is gathering instead of passing excess protein, I don't know how you would know this, you should see a doctor.

I think the name of the game here is ratios (P/C/F = 50/30/30; 40/40/20; etc. etc.) and your goals.

Facts:
Protein pushes your metabolism up, make it burn hotter, good for burning more fat and increasing energy levels.
Never been proven to be the CAUSE of liver or kidney diseases, but does effect these disease when they exsist.
It take longer to digest than carbs and so has the potential to help prevent hunger sensations.
How well you process protein and how much protein you need is directly related to activity level; and is individual to each person.


Here's some articles you can dig into (consider them a starting point):
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=615251
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=462192

Go here and search for Protein Consumption:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... &DB=pubmed

I'll let you search google yourself.

$.02


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:59 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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well, I'm not an expert on nutrition. But I weigh 150-155pounds and it is not uncommon for me to have 5 eggs for breakfast.... or lunch - any meal really...


I could easily believe that a guy of Arnies size could eat 8 eggs...

My reasoning is that although the average size egg supposedly has around 7 grams of protein, I count it as 5. I try aim for 30 grams of protein per meal so if i'm having eggs I will make 5.... Which makes 25grams but I feel having 6eggs would just be too far - there are other people in my house who like eggs :-)

I have read that a good general figure of protein consumption in 'one go' is 30 grams... But actually, as with everything, it depends on the individual...

KP


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:46 pm 
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Rookie
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Location: Nova Scotia
KPj wrote:
I could easily believe that a guy of Arnies size could eat 8 eggs...
Count on it... I've watched football and rugby players polish off a dozen eggs for breakfast, every morning.

They probably weren't models for nutrition, though!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:09 pm 
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I don't see the problem with eating egg whites in large quantities. They're a pretty healthy food. I don't eat them, can't stand them, but one of my friends includes them in his diet. I think so long as you avoid the yolk eggs can be very healthy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:28 pm 
Yolks have been exhonerated. They are the best part of the egg. so yolk away! Yolk till ya choke. hehe :)

A lot of times I will have 4 or 5 jumbo eggs (thoose are the biggest ones in the store. HUGE.) I'll put a couple slices of cheese on too. I'll also have 1 slice of low carb toast (6 grams net) and an atkins shake.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:32 pm 
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Apprentice
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There is such thing as overeating protein. I need to pull up a few articles I know to get real data, but from what I remember, your body cannot digest all the excess protein. WHich means it may burn protein for energy. Which, in turn, releases nitrogen into the blood stream, causing more urea to be in the blood stream, which also leeches calcium from the bones. That's why your urine may be extremely yellow after a large protein meal and why your $h!t stinks so bad after eating a 32 oz steak.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:02 pm 
You can take in more then you can use. Nobody can use more then 1.6 grams per pound of body weight a day. that is with hardcore bodybuilding. For an average person 40 grams at a time is the max. It does vary though. The rest of it is justed used as energy. It gets converted to glucose with a pretty high overhead just like fat.

It doesn't leach calcium. Those studies were flawed. The people ate powder insted of real food. They also got no vitimin suppliment. So they were defficient in things needed to use calcium. The only thing that can leach calcium is phosphor. It has a certain ballance with calcium. If there is not enough, it gets it from bones. Solution, calcium supplimentation. If people would just take a multi, eat real food, and do some exercise, they would find 99% of their problems go away.

As for the urea issue, this doesn't happen to most people unless you really go nuts with it or have some kidney problems. Having more watery urine has a lot to do with hydration too. So many people seem to have problems with that too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:22 pm 
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Apprentice
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Ironman,

I think this topic demands further discussion. I found my articles again and they go against what you say.

Calcium neutralizes strong stomach acids. It is the active ingredient used in antacid pills to relieve stomach pain caused by acid indigestion. Calcium, in the form of limestone, will neutralize acid rain. Within the body, it is used to maintain the correct acid balance of the blood. Our blood can function only at a specific pH level. If the blood acid level moves up or down, the body goes into an alarmed state. Hydrochloric acid is needed to digest ham, cheese, meats, eggs and processed foods. Calcium is secreted to alkalize this acidic digestive mixture when it enters the bloodstream. Afterward, it is excreted with other metabolic wastes. On the way out, calcium compounds can lodge in the kidneys causing kidney stones, or in the gall bladder producing gallstones.

Another way that a high-protein diet depletes calcium is through excess protein turning into urea in the liver. Urea creates a diuretic action in the kidney, leeching minerals, which include calcium through the urine.

The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition published a long-term study observing a diet consisting of 75 grams of protein per day, along with 1,400 mg. of calcium. It was discovered that a greater amount of calcium was lost through urine than was being absorbed into the body, creating a negative calcium balance. This study confirmed what many health specialists suspected. Protein consumption has the greatest impact on calcium depletion of the bones, even greater than the level of calcium intake through diet.



But wait! What about Herta Spencer and her research claiming that calcium is not leeched from bones when animal protein is eaten?

I'm sorry to say this, but her research is highly debated. Done in the 70s, her methods have been questioned heavily. She published 2 often-sited studies on the subject – one was paid for by the National Dairy Council and the other by the National Livestock and Meat Board. Her work has been rightly criticized because close scrutiny reveals areas of serious inconsistency. For example, in the study paid for by the National Dairy Council, she used inappropriate subjects and reported conclusions in contrast to her results. Of the six subjects in the study, one had osteoporosis and the urinary calcium so low as to suggest calcium malabsorption. Another subject carried a diagnosis of hypercalcuria (very high levels of calcium in the urine), making his data invalid. Of the remaining four subjects, three subjects did experience increased calcium loss during the high protein diet.



Also, for the urea issue, it IS a very big problem due to dehydration. Metabolizing protein requires more water than metabolizing carbs or fats. So if you are into eating more protein than normal like many body builders, be prepared to drink much more water than you normally drink. We are not talking 5 or 6 cups. We are talking about drinking a gallon of water each and every single day.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:21 am 
The only truth in there is the water thing. I drink almost a gallon day, more if you count the diet soda. What is wrong with that?

I've seen stuff around that contradicts all that. I have never had a problem. I have never met or talked to, or even heard of anyone who ever a problem. This includes people who think they need twice as much protein as they really do. The studies are flawed.

Go ahead and eat/believe what you like. I grow tired of myth busting on the subject. Or any subject.

With everything said about fat, protein, artificial sweetners and lack of carbs, I should have like a million different health problems and be almost dead by now. I just have to figure out how old I have to be before I can say I told ya so.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:02 pm 
Quote:
With everything said about fat, protein, artificial sweetners and lack of carbs, I should have like a million different health problems and be almost dead by now. I just have to figure out how old I have to be before I can say I told ya so.


Couldn't agree more, every time someone new sees me takin a shake, all i get is agro about liver damage etc

the arguement from Vok, reminds of a debate I had a few months ago about squats - off subject, I know, but let me get to the point...

I was told not to do squats and that only "pussies" do squats. This was
coming from a guy who trained his upper body only.

His statement was a joke, but the sad thing was, he really believed what he was saying. Reason being, we all know the squat is the 'king of all exercises' and more and more frequently I am coming across people who have mind bogling excuses not to do them. Truth is, their scared, lol and they WANT to believe it so much that they don't realise how stupid they sound.

Now, back to the protein - I don't know what studies are being refered to, but look around - how many guys are there that have been doing this all there life and not felt any negative effects from it?? It's as if people take pleasure in trying to scare us off this...

Also, I was on holiday a few months ago, for 2 weeks. My brother who also trains was there and the first thing we done was buy a big tub of Whey Protein. We realised that we wouldnt be able to finish the tub before we left, so we took 40-50 grams a time, 3 times a day minimum. In order to use it all.

I wish I could go through protein like that all the time, but can't afford it. Maybe it was phsycological but we both made had a boost in strength.

We certainly didn't feel ill....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:11 pm 
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Apprentice
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
How come nobody mentions kidney pains? I got 'em when I tried the Atkins diet. (Also gained weight, but that's another story.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:20 pm 
The urea thing was about that. I know you have to drink more when you eat that way. Maybe you didn't increase your fluid intake. Sometimes on induction for example you have to increase it by quite a bit. That is because of the ketones you are moving through. In that case the water makes the weight loss faster, because it is needed to process the ketones.

It is true that you can gain weight on Atkins, but it is almost imppossible. To do it, you have to eat like a totaly F*ing pig! I'm talking cheese, macedamias and walnuts like you are trying to rid the world of them. Most likley you ate something sugar soaked and didn't realise it. When I first started doing it, it happened to me a couple times. You just don't expect the kind of sugar content you find.

My guess would be, not enough water, not carefull enough with the labels, and too much cheese and nuts, and eating like a pig.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:26 am 
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Given the choice of overeating protein, overeating carbs, overeating fat, or overeating junk which would you go with?

Overeating Carbs - leads to fat production.
Overating Fat - halts fat furning and leat to fat production.
Overeating junk - leads to fat production and stimmies the metabolism.
Overeating Protein - makes your $h!7 stink and your piss yellow

Stop watching me pee, hold your nose and pass me that lean cut of prime beef.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:46 pm 
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Quote:
The only truth in there is the water thing. I drink almost a gallon day, more if you count the diet soda. What is wrong with that?


Did you bother to read what I wrote? What do you NOT understand about calcium depletion?

Quote:
I have never had a problem. I have never met or talked to, or even heard of anyone who ever a problem. This includes people who think they need twice as much protein as they really do. The studies are flawed.


Because of course, you can FEEL calcium depletion. And since you or your buddies don't FEEL calcium depletion, it cannot exist! Talk about flawed arguments...

Quote:
I grow tired of myth busting on the subject. Or any subject.


Yes Ironman, you are the say-all and end-all of everything. I bet you're this modest in person.




Quote:
I was told not to do squats and that only "pussies" do squats. This was
coming from a guy who trained his upper body only.

His statement was a joke, but the sad thing was, he really believed what he was saying.


I am not making any personal claims. If you read my above post, you will see all of my arguments are not made from me. They are made from health experts that have far more knowledge than you or I will ever have.

Quote:
Now, back to the protein - I don't know what studies are being refered to, but look around - how many guys are there that have been doing this all there life and not felt any negative effects from it??


Not everything is as cut and dry as you would like it to be. Again, you can't FEEL calcium depletion.

Quote:
so we took 40-50 grams a time, 3 times a day minimum. In order to use it all.

I wish I could go through protein like that all the time, but can't afford it. Maybe it was phsycological but we both made had a boost in strength.

We certainly didn't feel ill....


How's this. My friend ate nearly a pound of tunafish in a day. He had a headache for a week from all the protein. In cases like these and in nearly all cases, your mileage may vary. What you and your buddies experience is not representative of everyone. Please keep an open mind.

Quote:
Overeating Protein - makes your $h1t stink and your piss yellow

Stop watching me pee, hold your nose and pass me that lean cut of prime beef.


There seems to be a lack of any reading comprehension today. Maybe if you bothered to actually read what I wrote, you wouldn't seem to be such a clueless individual.


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