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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:46 am 
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So he can explain something to me if he does post some reasons.

Assuming your back has good endurance but then you go to lift up something heavy and do so with poor form (ie rounded back) arent you pretty much guarenteed an injury because you have almost no strength through ROM?

It seems like endurance is important but by itself it provides little protection against the things that usually cause back problems.


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:37 am 
I don't see how someone could develop a high level of strength without also building muscular endurance. For example, a powerlifter who can bench press 500 lbs should be able to do many reps with 225 lbs. Meanwhile, the oposite isn't neccessarily so. Doing lots of reps at 225 lbs won't allow you to jump strait up to a 500 lbs.

This would be even more true for spinal erectors, since they contract isometrically throughout each set of squats or deadlifts.


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:41 pm 
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I'm guessing one of O's reasons would be pressure on discs even with correct technique.

I also agree with Ryan, I can't see that deadlifts to much for back other than supporting the weight. Much better to do an exercise with some sort of ROM!

At the moment I'm only using seated rows and lat pulldowns.

I'm changing my splits next month from 3 full bodies a week to Monday Back/pulls, Wednesday Chest/Shoulder/Pushes and Friday Legs

Back days will be Seated Row, Lat Pull Down, Reverse Incline DB Flies, back extensions (weighted later on) and one arm DB rows (training for that old lawn mower starting!!!) and finishing off with assisted wide grip chins(cause I'm FAT!!!) I am a bit limited to these due to my gym but probably wouldn't change much anyway!


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:22 pm 
Would BB Rows improve posture? because I've been doing too much bench press and now my back is starting to hunch over, you know?

So I wanna balance out the back and front by doing more BB Rows, and perhaps other exercises like deadlifts.

I'm considering adding Oly lifts to my routine to improve my back and posture.

What do you think?


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:48 pm 
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You should try posterior deltoid work.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:07 pm 
Thanks Ryan.

I saw the BB Rear Delt Row exercise on the site. What's the difference between this exercise and the bb bent over row? is it the the bending degree of the upper body?

Thanks

What other exercises can I do with a BB for the posterior detls?


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:27 pm 
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Charlie wrote:
I saw the BB Rear Delt Row exercise on the site. What's the difference between this exercise and the bb bent over row? is it the the bending degree of the upper body?


In the case of the Rear Deltoid Row you row the barbell to your neck or upper chest (transverse extension), while in the Bent Over Row the movement is to the waist (extension).

Traditionally, both rowing movements had the same degree of forward bending of the upper body. But recently, concerns about the lower back has led to the bent over row being practiced with less of a bend. Since the end position is lower (waist), you can get away with that.

Charlie wrote:
What other exercises can I do with a BB for the posterior detls?


This is the only other one listed. Perhaps some members can think of others


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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 3:08 pm 
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Prone Incline Laterals ..... they're like Bent-over laterals except that you lay face down (kneeling on the seat) on an incline bench, instead of standing bent-over parallel to the floor. You can varry the angle of incline on these, but I like to keep it pretty low (about 30 degrees).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 7:43 pm 
Quote:
Assuming your back has good endurance but then you go to lift up something heavy and do so with poor form (ie rounded back) arent you pretty much guarenteed an injury because you have almost no strength through ROM?

It seems like endurance is important but by itself it provides little protection against the things that usually cause back problems.


I'll start with the last statement first. The majority of lower back injuries are caused by a repetition of poor lifting technique not one off lifts. Unfortunately it is normally the culmanative event (as above) that is viewed as the culprit and preventative measures normally focus on that. The truth is that total trauma from repetitive subfailure magnitude loads is the main cause of lower back injury. Of course if one lumbar joint moves to full flexion then that can cause instantaneous injury or pain. A point on ROM...good ROM in the lower back is not desirable when rehabilitating a lumbar injury. The most recent research is fairly compelling in that strength has a marginal relationship with lower back health but it is reduced trunk extensor endurance which is a concern. Also the balance between flexor and extensor endurance and right/left side balance.

The presumption here is obviously biased toward athletic principles of strength but most athletes are not healthy when looked at from a musculoskeletal viewpoint. While those principles enhance performance using them for health by the general public is unwise. Training for health needs motor control perfection, endurance and good spine stability and although strength increases with such a program it is not the intended goal. Someone asked for examples of exercises I wouldn't prescribe....well from a health perspective anything involving repetitive flexing, extension, rotation or lateral flexing of the L.spine would be out including sit ups. But I am not about to go into the biomechanics of injury right now LOL. Now i know a lot of people here will offer their own anecdotes about how long they have trained doing specific exercises and never had a back problem but I'm not talking anecdotes and i am not 'dissing' the choice to use athletic principles just the belief that the same principles will prevent or rehabilitate a back injury because evidence not anecdote suggests otherwise. Cheers.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 7:45 pm 
Quote:
Assuming your back has good endurance but then you go to lift up something heavy and do so with poor form (ie rounded back) arent you pretty much guarenteed an injury because you have almost no strength through ROM?

It seems like endurance is important but by itself it provides little protection against the things that usually cause back problems.


I'll start with the last statement first. The majority of lower back injuries are caused by a repetition of poor lifting technique not one off lifts. Unfortunately it is normally the culmanative event (as above) that is viewed as the culprit and preventative measures normally focus on that. The truth is that total trauma from repetitive subfailure magnitude loads is the main cause of lower back injury. Of course if one lumbar joint moves to full flexion then that can cause instantaneous injury or pain. A point on ROM...good ROM in the lower back is not desirable when rehabilitating a lumbar injury. The most recent research is fairly compelling in that strength has a marginal relationship with lower back health but it is reduced trunk extensor endurance which is a concern. Also the balance between flexor and extensor endurance and right/left side balance.

The presumption here is obviously biased toward athletic principles of strength but most athletes are not healthy when looked at from a musculoskeletal viewpoint. While those principles enhance performance using them for health by the general public is unwise. Training for health needs motor control perfection, endurance and good spine stability and although strength increases with such a program it is not the intended goal. Someone asked for examples of exercises I wouldn't prescribe....well from a health perspective anything involving repetitive flexing, extension, rotation or lateral flexing of the L.spine would be out including sit ups. But I am not about to go into the biomechanics of injury right now LOL. Now i know a lot of people here will offer their own anecdotes about how long they have trained doing specific exercises and never had a back problem but I'm not talking anecdotes and i am not 'dissing' the choice to use athletic principles just the belief that the same principles will prevent or rehabilitate a back injury because evidence not anecdote suggests otherwise. Cheers.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 7:46 pm 
Apologies for the double post.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 9:00 am 
O, are you saying endurace only for anything that involves lower back? The strange thing with me, is my back never felt so good as when I started doing straight leg deadlifts. I have gotten up to 205 lbs for 8 reps, not quite to failure. I am the weak bodybuilder sterotype that gears things 100% twoards hypertrophy by the way.

The only thing I have noticed, is when I do a high volume program, I can do 5X8 at 150 lbs, and then I have to finish hams with leg curls. That is after doing 8X8 on squats at 70% though. So I can kind of see the repetative motion thing. I know when I did hams on back day, I couldn't do bent over rows with straight leg deadlift, I had to do prone dumbbell rows instead. I stoped that real quick though, because straight legs with smoked traps sucks.

I used to have back problems when I was fat. Then I slimed down, and I was just doing hyper extension and my back was ok that point. Then after I started doing straight legs my back has been great. I only had 1 minor strain which was the result of me letting my form slip. That hurt pretty bad but I was all good after a week. It served as a great reminder to keep perfect form.

I do all free weights, so my lower back gets a lot of use. That maybe has boosted it's endurance. Maybe that has something to do with it feeling good now.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:57 pm 
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My favorite pure back exercise would probably be the bent-over row, but recently my favorite exercise has been deadlifting which I use primarily to target legs (I couple them with squats) though their benefits to the back I can feel for sure.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 9:30 pm 
Quote:
O, are you saying endurace only for anything that involves lower back?


What I am saying is that endurance is a more important factor in lower back health, injury prevention and injury recovery than strength and in some cases ROM. This is not to say byou should never use strength or hypertrophy exercises if that is what you want but if you just want a healthy back then endurance is now being realised as being the foundation. As for the deadlifts...well I don't prescribe them during rehab and I don't know anyone else in my profession who does either and I generally wouldn't prescribe them for back health. Mainly because of the form issues and that they hold no specific motor control value for having a healthy back. But if you do them with good technique avoid any flexion at any lumbar joint then they are a beneficial exercise for those who are after some performance attribute. The bent over row is an exzcellent exercise for the lower back but I modify it slightly so the person is more upright supporting themselves with one hand, spine neutral knees bent, bracing on. This trains the person to resist torsional torque which is a concern in injury mechnics of the spine due to the greater compression it causes compared to the flexion/extension movement.


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