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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Steve, remember that 'Rome wasn't built a day' these things take time. For one months training expect 1-2lbs of muscle (not weight) to grow, so for all that weight you lift in a month it's a pretty meagre return. It takes time, dedication, maximum effort and patience to get fitter and stronger. If it was easy, the western world wouldn't be full of overweight unfit people!!!

Other measures to track progress would be to weigh, measure and take photos of yourself and then do it again in a months time to see the difference. You'll surprise yourself, the differences day to day are negligible, over a onth they're more pronounced and it'll give you that extra bit of encouragement.

With regards to your routine, i would say just keep going. You' aren't going to be stalling on exercises 8wks in, you'll begin to slow but you should still make gains. To break it up, try lowering the weight and going for more reps every now and again. Or you could try one week where you change the exercises, and then go back to what you were doing.

ie Bench Press - Incline Dumbell Press
Squat - Single-leg variation
Shoulder Press - Dunbell Shoulder Press.

Just add a bit of variation if you're losing enthusiasm.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Proper Knob wrote:
Steve, remember that 'Rome wasn't built a day' these things take time. For one months training expect 1-2lbs of muscle (not weight) to grow, so for all that weight you lift in a month it's a pretty meagre return. It takes time, dedication, maximum effort and patience to get fitter and stronger. If it was easy, the western world wouldn't be full of overweight unfit people!!!

With regards to your routine, i would say just keep going. You' aren't going to be stalling on exercises 8wks in, you'll begin to slow but you should still make gains. To break it up, try lowering the weight and going for more reps every now and again. Or you could try one week where you change the exercises, and then go back to what you were doing.

Just add a bit of variation if you're losing enthusiasm.


Thanks for the reminder. I know it wasn't built in a day, but I was hoping for some noticeable improvement sooner than later. I suppose I'll have to do photos to show myself the differences. Please don't misunderstand; I haven't lost enthusiasm. I don't think I can lose that at this point in time because after working out, I feel so pumped up, and I can feel the all the muscles the next day - I continuously stretch and contract as a result. I just want to make sure I am going at it at the right pace, work load, etc. as I do not want to miss out on gains by doing too little, but I also don't want to overtrain. For example, I am working 3 sets of 5 reps; would I benefit more going to 5 sets of 5. Ok, ok, I actually do 4 sets on bench press because I like it so...... I know there's probably some benefit, but is the benefit worth the extra effort, time, etc.? Just trying to improve my knowledge to improve my routine.

Thanks for the tips and encouragement.

Would anyone know how much the bar on an Incarian Smith machine count as? I'm out of town and working out at a gym, and I use it due to lack of spotter.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:45 pm 
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slw0096 wrote:
For example, I am working 3 sets of 5 reps; would I benefit more going to 5 sets of 5. Ok, ok, I actually do 4 sets on bench press because I like it so...... I know there's probably some benefit, but is the benefit worth the extra effort, time, etc.? Just trying to improve my knowledge to improve my routine.


If you do 5 x 5 sets across - same weight for all sets, you'll have to go lower in weight than if you do 3 x 5 set across. The accumulated fatigue will force you to choose a lower weight. The same way you do less weight for 3 x 5 than for 1 x 5, because your 1 x 5 can be the absolute maximum you can get for 5 reps because after it's over you are done. So if you do 5 x 5 instead of 3 x 5, you're trading some weight for more volume.

In the long run it will make a difference. But I think the reason 3 x 5 gets used a lot is that it's enough volume to make you grow, but also few enough sets that you can lift a little heavier. This is why the workout routine I used (WS4SB) has you "work up" to a max set of 1-5 reps, but expects you to do lots of warmup sets. They provide the extra volume you need.

Does that help?

slw0096 wrote:
Would anyone know how much the bar on an Incarian Smith machine count as? I'm out of town and working out at a gym, and I use it due to lack of spotter.


I've never used one, but AFAIK all smith machine bars are about 15#. So next time you see someone using the smith machine to bench 2 plates on each side, remember that it's 195# not 225#. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:59 pm 
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pdellorto wrote:
In the long run it will make a difference. But I think the reason 3 x 5 gets used a lot is that it's enough volume to make you grow, but also few enough sets that you can lift a little heavier. This is why the workout routine I used (WS4SB) has you "work up" to a max set of 1-5 reps, but expects you to do lots of warmup sets. They provide the extra volume you need.

Does that help?


I understand that. I was looking for more of whether or not I should go ahead with uping the sets or am I ok with what I have for now. Again, I'm looking to make sure I'm doing what is "best" for me. For example, when I bench press and don't quite make all reps in all sets, or I just feel up to it, I will push a 4th set of 5 reps.

My routine calls for several warm-up sets before performing the 3x5, so in essence I already have volume with that. Now, another question: I read "adding a single high rep set to a 5x5 strength routine has been shown to significantly increase the GH response meaning you get both neurological and metabolic adaptations from your routine. It’s the best of both worlds!" by Chris_A - in respsone to a general post I did a while back. Would that be something to do with the 3x5? If so, how many reps and at what % of workout weight?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:04 am 
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slw0096 wrote:
I understand that. I was looking for more of whether or not I should go ahead with uping the sets or am I ok with what I have for now. Again, I'm looking to make sure I'm doing what is "best" for me. For example, when I bench press and don't quite make all reps in all sets, or I just feel up to it, I will push a 4th set of 5 reps.


I'd just suggest balancing out your pulling in this way. If you're going to do 4 x 5 of bench presses but don't do any additional pulling exercises, you're headed into that "mirror muscles" trap of working the chest more than the back.


slw0096 wrote:
My routine calls for several warm-up sets before performing the 3x5, so in essence I already have volume with that.


Sure, but it's all lower weights than you can really handle. You don't get much of the "overload" in the "overload principle" from your warmups. They're supposed to get you ready for your 3x5, not provide a big part of your workout stimulus.

In some programs it does, though...


slw0096 wrote:
Now, another question: I read "adding a single high rep set to a 5x5 strength routine has been shown to significantly increase the GH response meaning you get both neurological and metabolic adaptations from your routine. It’s the best of both worlds!" by Chris_A - in respsone to a general post I did a while back. Would that be something to do with the 3x5? If so, how many reps and at what % of workout weight?


That's a backoff set. How much for how many reps depends. The recommendation in Starting Strength is that if you do these, you need to have perfect form. So you drop the weight to 80% of your top weight for the workout and up the reps to 150%. So if you did 3 x 5 x 135 as your top set, you do about 105 (roughly 80% of 135) for 1-2 sets of 8 reps.

The other option is to do a different but related exercise for lower weight and higher reps. In WS4SB you'll see this - you do, say, bench pressing for a maximum effort (working up to a max single, triple, or set of 5, or perhaps 3 x 3 or 3 x 5), and then do DB bench pressing for max reps or 3-4 x 10-12 reps afterwards. But that depends on two things - a workout that's centered on that method (so the "extra work" here isn't extra, it's required), and the split being *one* maximum effort exercise per day. You don't squat to your 5RM and then bench to your 5RM on the same day, because it's a Westside template...one maximum effort exercise per day. That's different from what you are doing.

I'd stick with the program, though. You're already moving from doing 3 x 5 on the bench press to 4 x 5, and now you're talking adding 1-2 additional work sets afterwards at a lower weight to get more volume in. That's a lot of pressing. That's a lot of squatting if you do it for squats.

If you're already making linear progress on 3 x 5 or 4 x 5, as in the weights go up on schedule each workout, I wouldn't add the extra volume. Why bother? You're already making gains, and they will either provide a very small increase in the speed of your gains or provide so much extra work that you can't recover well enough and slow your down. Why risk it, if what you are doing now is working?

Not to lecture you...but it just seems like you're so concerned with maximizing your gains that you're going to add onto the workout until it collapses. Try to get optimal results, not maximal results, that's my advice.

Peter


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:26 pm 
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pdellorto wrote:
Not to lecture you...but it just seems like you're so concerned with maximizing your gains that you're going to add onto the workout until it collapses. Try to get optimal results, not maximal results, that's my advice.Peter


Please don't misunderstand my post. I haven't changed my routine at all with the exception of the 4th set on bench press, but I add it if I don't make all my reps in my sets. For example, The other day I did 170lbs for 4, 3, 3, 3 so a total of 13 reps which is still lower than 3x5 a total of 15 reps. The stuff I've listed are things I'm picking up in my reading, and I'm asking if these different things will help or hurt me at this point. I am trying to stay on top of my routine and knowledge so that I don't stagnate like so many people do.

To me, optimizing my gains is maximizing my gains based on the work I do. For example, Instead of adding curls, I alternate dips and chins as auxiliary exercises at 3x8. To me, I am doing a little more work with a huge and more effective impact on not only the targeted muscle but other suppporting muscles. I know curls have there spot, but with my routine, I don't feel the need for them at this time as so many others like to beat up there arms with curls.

I'm not looking to overload myself with a bunch of exercises. It's more a struggle within my mind to ensure that I am doing enough and that I have to give what I'm doing time to work. Does that make sense?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:58 pm 
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slw0096 wrote:
Does that make sense?


Yes, that makes sense.


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:29 am 
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Please check out updates to my log and comment, provide advice/guidence or general information...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:53 pm 
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I've updated my journal with last weeks stats and current routine. I've been reading about GPP and would like to know what are some good routines/exercise with set, rep & weight stats that would enahnce my routine.

Also, I've read a bit more about squats & box squats, and I'm concerned I may not be squating properly. I noticed when I squated 230, I wasn't getting to parallel much less getting lower. I used an aerobic set last Friday to ensure I was getting low enough and dropped the weight down to ensure I would get my sets & reps in. I did a 5 reps @ 95, 95, 115, 135, 155, 175, 195 & 205. After watching another video, I think I actually move my knees first vs lowering my hips first. Any advice would be greatly appreciated...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:36 am 
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slw0096 wrote:
I would also like suggestions on cutting my time down with my overall workout. I know my core exercises (big 3) take about an hour, my auxes take an additional 15 or so and then my cardio takes 45 min putting my time at just over 2hrs. Could subing GPP for cardio on workout days be better? Should I move my cardio to off days?!?



You mention in your log that you want to increase strength AND lose fat. You really need to prioritise one or the other. If you choose strength, then there's no need for the cardio. It may even be detrimental depending on how you do it. In those 45 minutes that you're doing cardio, I would be expecting you to be getting some form of calories down you, particularly after 1hour 15-ish mins of lifting.

On that basis, you've got to ask the question - WHY am i doing 45 mins of cardio after lifting? How will it benefit me?

Don't believe the myth that all the lifting is 'building and shaping' your muscles and the cardio at the end is 'stripping fat' - it just doesn't work like that. I would actually bet that if you just flat out removed the cardio, then there would be no noticable difference. If anything you may notice an increase in progress, particularly if you're getting a shake or a meal down you when you wouldnormally be doing the cardio.

If you're really stuck on the cardio, you could change it to 10 minutes of HIIT, complexes, circuits or something instead. Since it's only steady steady state stuff, you could get away with it on your off days without screwing with your recovery but again you need to ask "WHY?" and question if the reason makes sense.

Or, you could decrease the weight on your assistance exercises, and decrease rest, and 'get out of breath' when doing those. When i'm stuck for time I turn my assistance exercises into a circuit or series of supersets. Or just leave them, but I would rather get them done.

KPj


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:12 am 
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My thoughts are very similar to KPJ. I would try some type Shorter duration HIIT training instead of the steady state cardio. This would decrease the total time in the gym quite a bit.

For myself, I have considered some light complexes for my warmups instead of my normal cardio. I know these can also be used in a hiit type workout.

Cliff


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:48 pm 
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KPj wrote:
You mention in your log that you want to increase strength AND lose fat. You really need to prioritise one or the other.


My priority is strength; losing fat is the added bonus because with strength / muscle gain = more fat burned - at least that's what I've read several times now.

KPj wrote:
If you choose strength, then there's no need for the cardio. It may even be detrimental depending on how you do it. In those 45 minutes that you're doing cardio, I would be expecting you to be getting some form of calories down you, particularly after 1hour 15-ish mins of lifting.


No, I'm not taking any cals in while doing cardio. I go from lifting to walking. The cardio isn't very strenuous; thus, I haven't seen or felt any ill effects so far. The following excerpt is what I got from http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthrea ... 224&page=2

"Can I do cardio for fat burning while on this program?
Cardio is something that should be done by everyone on the planet, just for general health. If you are a chronic chubb-dogg (like me!) then cardio should be a daily habit at least once, sometimes twice a day. The key is in modulating the intensity and duration so as to positively affect your barbell training, rather than negatively affect it. The chronically chubby will notice a DRASTIC difference in the body's ability to process calories, especially carbohydrates, if consistent cardio training is added to a consistent weight program. Frequently, the chubbage will melt away while the muscle gets packed on. It is a natural characteristic of the endo-meso somatype to be able to add muscle while losing bodyfat if calories are clean, protein is relatively high, and cardio is performed daily. In many cases, adding some cardio will actually enhance barbell progress because of the positive "CHO-useage" effect cardio has on many naturally bulky trainees."

-I've also heard it form other sources as well. Utilizing strength training to build strength & muscle which burns more fat and then using cardio for additional fat loss.

KPj wrote:
On that basis, you've got to ask the question - WHY am i doing 45 mins of cardio after lifting? How will it benefit me? If you're really stuck on the cardio, you could change it to 10 minutes of HIIT, complexes, circuits or something instead. Since it's only steady steady state stuff, you could get away with it on your off days without screwing with your recovery but again you need to ask "WHY?" and question if the reason makes sense.


The answer to why is to loss the gut I'm toting around. As far as how I get rid of it, doesn't make much difference to me as long as it isn't surgery.... lol. I'm not stuck on the cardio; I'm actually the most flexible person when it comes to developing a routine that works. I'll take input from everyone to find the best, most effecient & effective method for getting myself into shape. I familiar with HIIT, but complexes & GPP I'm just now learning a bit about.

KPj wrote:
Or, you could decrease the weight on your assistance exercises, and decrease rest, and 'get out of breath' when doing those. When i'm stuck for time I turn my assistance exercises into a circuit or series of supersets. Or just leave them, but I would rather get them done. KPj


I prefer getting the aux's in too; just feels I've accomplished more if I do them. I can't really reduce the weight as I'm using the max assistance weight available just to do the pulls & dips.

Recap: My focus is my lifting; the aux's & cardio are extra as needed. If I can do a little cardio after lifting &/or on off days to help increase fat loss and improve recordy/rest time then I'm for it; if it won't help, then I won't do it. My goal is to increase strength, and through strength increase body fat should decrease. Any & all suggestions welcome. I'm decreasing my weight on the squat to improve form, so I should have additional energy at the end of my lift to do some additional aux's or something to enhance my training.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:50 am 
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slw0096 wrote:
My priority is strength; losing fat is the added bonus because with strength / muscle gain = more fat burned - at least that's what I've read several times now.


That's what I like to hear. It's winter anyway. No need for abs in winter.

Muscle gain certainly = more CALORIES burned. Strength training should be the foundation to any fatloss routine. However, to lose fat you need to be in a calorie deficit, and, to gain strength, you need to be in a calorie surplus. The idea is to build strength, whilst eating clean, then do a phase of fat loss in which case you will lower your calories and aim to KEEP (not gain) your strength. You can lose a significant amount of fat in 4 weeks if you do it properly.

It's worth noting that, for whatever reason, if you're in a calorie surplus, training for strength, but eating clean, then you may get stronger and a little leaner. Especially if you're not all that experienced. But in general, the above rules apply (do one or the other) so you shouldn't rely on that.

"if you chase 2 rabbits at once, you won't catch any of them".

slw0096 wrote:
-I've also heard it form other sources as well. Utilizing strength training to build strength & muscle which burns more fat and then using cardio for additional fat loss.


From the same bodybuilding thread/author...

"Question - Can I do a cut diet and do cardio while on Starting Strength?

Ideally speaking, any initial weight training will be done with a minimum of cardio and while eating a caloric excess. This will allow for optimal muscle growth during the time in your training "career" that is optimal for that muscle growth. Less cardio = more calories for growth, hypothetically speaking."

FYI - 'growth' and 'increase in strength' are pretty much the same ball game. You need a surplus for both.

Also,

"*** In order to burn bodyfat, you must take in less calories than you need. This generally will result in you taking in less micro- and macronutrients than you need to build muscle, even if you take every supplement on the market."

And,

"*** Burning bodyfat while gaining muscular bodyweight is confined to mutants, younger (i.e. teenage) males, those who are new to the iron and those who have been previously well-trained, but are now out of shape and are relying on "muscle memory" to work a little magic while they get back into shape."

Basically, the more cardio you do the more calories you burn and the more you need to eat to get in a surplus, and gain strength. Remember in the long run those strength gains will result in more calories burned. So, we're again brought back to.... Prioritising strength.

Biggest issue I have is - What IS Cardio? Why does 'cardio' need to involve a bike, treadmill, x-trainer or whatever? What does 'cardio' as we know it, actually do? It get's your heart rate up i.e. it gets you out of breath. That also happens during a lifting session, and you can emphasise it by tweaking your sets and reps. Does my cardio-vascular system know the difference between 'getting out of breath' on a treadmill vs 'getting out of breath' during a lifting session? So, the 'doing cardio for your health' thing just doesn't hold up for me.

slw0096 wrote:
The answer to why is to loss the gut I'm toting around. As far as how I get rid of it


If you consider all of the above, and assume your prioritising strength, then that reason becomes invalid, because you're not directly trying to lose fat. If you were trying to lose fat, then there are still more efficient ways which would probably get you better results but take much less time.

slw0096 wrote:
I prefer getting the aux's in too; just feels I've accomplished more if I do them. I can't really reduce the weight as I'm using the max assistance weight available just to do the pulls & dips.


To me, that would be even more reason to prioritise strength for now.

slw0096 wrote:
Recap: My focus is my lifting; the aux's & cardio are extra as needed. If I can do a little cardio after lifting &/or on off days to help increase fat loss and improve recordy/rest time then I'm for it; if it won't help, then I won't do it


Since strength is the priority, then I would just get rid of the cardio completely. Another important aspect of lifting is to eat soon after your workout is finished. So, really you should be consuming calories when your actually burning more. I would just lift, then go home and eat.

Just keep it simple. Prioritise strength - if your not getting stronger, then hit the nail on the head and scrap the cardio altogether. If you then start getting stronger again, then, by all means, gradually add in some cardio again and keep an eye on your progress. If strength work stalls, then you know it's too much.

My personal view is that cleaning up your diet alone is going to be the best way of 'getting rid of fat' right now.

KPj


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:37 pm 
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KPj wrote:
That's what I like to hear. It's winter anyway. No need for abs in winter.


We don't get winter down here except for maybe a week. This week has been nice though - only got up to 80 so far...

KPj wrote:
However, to lose fat you need to be in a calorie deficit, and, to gain strength, you need to be in a calorie surplus. The idea is to build strength, whilst eating clean, then do a phase of fat loss in which case you will lower your calories and aim to KEEP (not gain) your strength. You can lose a significant amount of fat in 4 weeks if you do it properly.


Guess I was hoping that the body would use the excess storage for the nutrients it needs to build muscle. Curious as to why that wouldn't work? So, how far should I take my strength training before I do a routine run for fat loss? Please don't tell me it's up to me; I know it is, but I'd like general guidance. So, for example, if I increase my squat by xlbs then I shift to a fat loss routine for several weeks then go back to strength.

What is the proper way to loss a significant amount of fat in 4 weeks?

KPj wrote:
"*** In order to burn bodyfat, you must take in less calories than you need. This generally will result in you taking in less micro- and macronutrients than you need to build muscle, even if you take every supplement on the market."


So, if I take less calories, the body will not take from storage to build muscle - my muscles just won't grow? Don't want that...

KPj wrote:
Biggest issue I have is - What IS Cardio?


I know my lifting is cardio because my heart jumps out my chest, I'm breathing heavy well after I'm finished, etc. I think most people distinguish between their lifting and cardio because they can't lift back to back days; Monday is lift day, Tuesday cardio - cardio without heavy weights or lifting. Though technically, anythying you do to get heart rate up is cardio.

KPj wrote:
My personal view is that cleaning up your diet alone is going to be the best way of 'getting rid of fat' right now.KPj


I've done a good job at cleaning up my diet. I focus on meat & veggies for each meal. Most days I can get 6 small meals in; other days I slide a bit. I'm also using a protein powder - especially on lift days.

- updated my journal for today's lift. It took me just over an hour to get through my core then another 20 minutes or so for the aux's. I cut the cardio out...


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:05 pm 
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Journal is up-to-date with this weeks stats. I hit a new record for my deadlift. I'm stoicked and nervous at the same time..... With each workout that has the deadlift from this point forward, I will be setting PR's. Next week I will attempt 325lbs.

On my squat, I've been going up with increments of 5lbs. Should I attempt to go up with increments of 10lbs now that I've been going at it a while?

Will be making adjustments for Press and Pendlay next week.


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