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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:50 pm 
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OK, according to the guidelines posted on this site, you can achieve a reasonable fitness level with:

Cardio:
- 20 minutes, 3x a week

Weights:
- One set of 8 to 12 repetitions done 2 days per week (More sets / more frequent training may elicit slightly greater strength gains but additional improvement is relatively small)
- 8 to 10 (mostly compound) exercises, working at least Quads, Hams, Back, Chest, Abs (Calves, Delts, Biceps, Triceps, Traps, Lower back, etc are all optional)

So theoretically you are meeting this standard with something like this (cardio + full body routine done three times per week, weights done for 1 set of 10 reps):
20 minutes cardio
1) Squat (or similar such as leg press)
2) Romanian Deadlift (or similar such as Hamstring curl)
3) Calf raises (1st optional)
4) Rows (or maybe pullups / pulldowns)
5) Bench press (or similar, maybe dips)
6) Upright rows (2nd optional, for delts they recommend a Side Deltoid selection since Front Deltoids assists during Chest exercises, upright row chosen because its compond rather than isolation)
7) Crunches (or similar ab exercise)
8) Plank (3rd optional, for core / lower back)

Would anyone agree that this is a reasonable program for someone just looking to get in decent shape, look and feel better, etc? Specifically, do you all think there is any reason for someone not interesting in bodybuilding, dinosaur strength, etc to do more than this? Thanks...

Steve


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:57 pm 
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Looks reasonable for a beginner just out trying to get in better shape. I would suggest a warmup (lighter) set before doing your 1 hard working set. Should keep you going for a couple of months. Just remember, though, as you get stronger, you might require a little more rest between sessions, and a few warmup sets, but as a starter, sure, it's got most bases covered.
Tim


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:41 pm 
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TimD wrote:
Looks reasonable for a beginner just out trying to get in better shape.

See, thats why I asked. It seems like most people here don't buy these recommendations, or at most think they are ok for beginners only. This site says doing more than one set doesn't help very much, doing more than 1 (or 2) exercises per muscle group doesn't help very much, programs lasting longer than one hour are overkill, etc. It doesn't say that for beginners, it says that for ANYONE (other than bodybuilders or other athletes needing more muscle mass). So are you all bodybuilders? Are you all young guys trying to add lots of muscle? Or you just don't buy that more isn't better? I'm just curious. For me, an older (47 yo) guy just trying to stay in shape, these recommendations seem fine...
Steve


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:37 pm 
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Yes, recently the ACSM has released new guidelines admitting what most sports performance trainers have always said, 1 set is not enough for advanced trainees.

So this site is basically out of date.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:17 pm 
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DJDaddyK wrote:
See, thats why I asked. It seems like most people here don't buy these recommendations, or at most think they are ok for beginners only. This site says doing more than one set doesn't help very much, doing more than 1 (or 2) exercises per muscle group doesn't help very much, programs lasting longer than one hour are overkill, etc. It doesn't say that for beginners, it says that for ANYONE (other than bodybuilders or other athletes needing more muscle mass). So are you all bodybuilders? Are you all young guys trying to add lots of muscle? Or you just don't buy that more isn't better? I'm just curious. For me, an older (47 yo) guy just trying to stay in shape, these recommendations seem fine...


Let this 52 year old set you straight, Sonny! ;-)

I've been going to the gym for 20 years, and on numerous occasions I have dumped super-duper weight routines and have gone back to basic routines like the one that you're following. Basic compound movements using moderate weights, full range of motion and good form will improve your strength, health, sense of balance and even your joints. For someone who isn't a (paid) athlete, following a maximum performance routine has a negative risk/reward ratio.

If your goal is to get in shape, you're on the right path.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:12 pm 
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The point of weight training for hypertrophy or strength is to overload the muscle. More advanced lifters need more than one set to overload their muscles because of the base of strength they already has. I guess the point I want to make is that there is a difference between overload and train... I hope I'm making myself clear.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:47 pm 
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Ryan A wrote:
So this site is basically out of date.

LOL, OK then... Actually, I went back and was able to find at least some places where they say that intermediate or advanced lifters may need to work out more frequently / more sets, so its not as bad as you and I said.

I guess I'm at least partially trying to convince myself that these guidelines are OK. I really want want to do the routine I outined above but I feel compelled to add at least Pulldowns (for lats) and Dips (to balance the pulldowns) and Military Press (because its such a great all body exercise but then I worry about overloading my front delts and might have to add rear delt work too -- aarrgghh)...

Thanks again guys...
Steve


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:28 am 
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That's 1 work set. I think the general advise is if your only going to do 1-2 work sets you should also do at least 1 warmup set to get the blood localized. I think this site might be a bit outdated in this reguard as well. I use these guidlines for determining set/rep formats.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:34 am 
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DJDaddyK wrote:
Ryan A wrote:
So this site is basically out of date.

LOL, OK then... Actually, I went back and was able to find at least some places where they say that intermediate or advanced lifters may need to work out more frequently / more sets, so its not as bad as you and I said.

I guess I'm at least partially trying to convince myself that these guidelines are OK. I really want want to do the routine I outined above but I feel compelled to add at least Pulldowns (for lats) and Dips (to balance the pulldowns) and Military Press (because its such a great all body exercise but then I worry about overloading my front delts and might have to add rear delt work too -- aarrgghh)...

Thanks again guys...
Steve


It's good that you are putting some thought into your training. Most people don't.

Just don't overthink it. When I started training, I came to this very site and put together a routine from this web site:

Squat
Benhc Press
Straigh-Leg Deadlift
Rows
Curls
Tri Extensions

3 times a week. I did 1 set of 12 per exercise. My workouts lasted 20 minutes. All my friends thought I was not doing enough work, but I made more progress than all of them put together. I attribute this to the fact that my wokrouts were 20 minutes and I never felt inclined to miss one. I have had the chance to develop the love for training.

This is a good beginner routine. Later you can and most likely will do more sets.

As for balance. You can't have a perfectly balanced routine. There is always some imbalance. So what you do is do a SLIGHTLY imbalanced routine for say 4 weeks. And in the next 4 weeks you cover the imbalances from the last 4 weeks and so on.

Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 8:03 am 
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George G wrote:
...and I never felt inclined to miss one. I have had the chance to develop the love for training.


This is important, I love working out, that's why I'm bigger than any of my roommates (well that and a genetic predisposition to be bigger (I am at least 4 inches taller than any of them...)).


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 11:01 am 
I've found that performing one WORKING set (to or near failure) on major compound lifts works well for me, however these are always preceded by several warmup sets of increasing intensity.

I would caution however that some people might consider some of my heavier warmup sets to be sub-maximal working sets, since there seems to be little consesus on what exactly constitutes a working set.

Also, for someone on a maintenance program going to failure isn't neccessary (unless perhaps your trying to maintain a very high level of development).


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:10 pm 
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George G wrote:
This is a good beginner routine. Later you can and most likely will do more sets.

Lol, you guys keep assuming I am a beginner. I'm not. I've lifted on and off for more than 30 years. I've probably tried every new idea that came down the pike in that time. I've added more weight and more sets more times than I can count. I've paid trainers to push me to the puking point. All it got me was bad knees and shoulders :-) So I am really trying to rethink things. I'm older (and don't recover near as fast), my goals have changed (from I WANNA BE HUGE to I WANNA GET BACK IN DECENT SHAPE), and clearly my workouts need to change as well. I used to do lots of isolation exercises (at one point years ago I had a whole day for ARMS); now I'm way more interested in composite exercises that work the whole body in a useful way; FUNCTIONAL EXERCISES which will crossover to the real world. To steal a word from the Go Animal movement, I'm probably most interested in Prehabilitation (a program which will help me injury-proof myself)...
Steve


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:23 pm 
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Beginner is interchangeable with "coming off a layoff".


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 8:39 pm 
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OK, here's the deal. I thought your program was well thought out. You asked about 1 srt. That goes in line with Hoffman's old York programs, that works quite well. But he had 4 courses. He had two along the lines of yours (basic exercises, 1 repition weight lifting, and one that was lots of sets in the lifts of the day. It started out for the first 6 months, that you did 1 set of each for the first two courses, alternating courses. wk1 1,2,1, wk2 2,1,2, then at 6 month, you did the same, but added in 7-10 DB optional exercises to following the main BB exercises that it resembled. Think adding a set. After that you started adding in the repition weightling course done onc a week, and cominbing course 1,2 and the DB options 2 X a week. It's all about progression, and building up work capacities. You say you have worked out off and on for 30 years, I've been at it for 45, and these simple progressions work. Were not knocking you, but you asked for minimum standards, and I thought yours were fine, for starters. Another note on this. A few years back, the ACSM was influenced by Wayne Wescott, when some studies were done. The studies were done with untrained athletes. It was also done during the time HIY (High Intensity Training ) was very popular, and yes, there is definately a time and place for HIT,and yes, if you are starting out, it is a good place to start. But different needs have different tools. Currently, I am 56, and mostly into general fitness. I have two strength days/week, meaning mutltiple sets, heavy loads (for me), and 4-5 sdays/week I do moderate weights, in circuit training, usually for time, with mutiple sets for work capacity. Bodybuilders go about if differently, as do OL and PL types. And one more note, as Ryan stated, the ASCM has retracted their recommendations, as has Arthur Jones, the cretor of Nautilus and considered the father of HIT
Tim


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 12:23 am 
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Thanks to Tim and Ryan and everyone else for the comments and info. I wonder why they (ExRx web owners) don't update the site if the ASCM and others have officially changed their positions? Oh well. Anyway, I appreciate all the expertise, thanks again...
Steve


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