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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:59 pm 
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Look, I'm not going to argue with anyone about meal times or the amount of protein a day. What I do works. I have put on 60lbs in less than two years at the same BF levels, and trippled if not more all of my lifts.

Everyone I knwo with arms over 19" that aren't fat, eats that much if not more. I can't find anywhere trustworthy that says Ronnie only eats 400, but I did find many times where Kia eats a 1,000... It is irrelevant anyway. I'm not going to base my diet off of the biggest genetic freak of all time.

I'm looking to replace my shakes with some other method to get protein... That is all I need. (Cartons of pasturized egg whites and cottage cheese looks like the winner here. But I already eat 8 eggs a day... Ugh.)

I'm going to continue to eat teh way I do for now.

My blends are as follows (from Trueprotein.com)

Anytime Mix
10% Egg White Protein
45% Whey Protein Isolate Ion-Exchange
20% Micellar Casein (Instantized)
25% Whey Protein Concentrate

Peri-Workout
70% Whey Protein Concentrate
15% Hydrolyzed Whey Isolate Ultra Grade
15% BCAA's


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 4:49 pm 
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NightFaLL wrote:
...
Also, contrary to what people have heard about eating a high fat diet - eating high fat does not make the body burn more fat than it would by simply going low fat/carb - high protein.


There are a couple schools of thought on this. Some (myself included) think that moderate protein, high fat and low carb give better results than low fat/carb - high protein.


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:16 pm 
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I have put on 60lbs in less than two years at the same BF levels, and trippled if not more all of my lifts.


Holy crap! Were you a newb at the start of that?


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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:23 pm 
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I don't think high fat/protein, low carb causes the body to burn more fat than low carb/low fat high protein. I think either way you would be utilising fat more as a fuel due to the decreased insulin levels and increased glucaon levels. But if you were doing it purely to lose body fat then low fat/carb high protein will produce quicker results because the body is having to use more fat stores for energy rather than get it through diet. You could look at it like high fat/high protein for bulking and the former for cutting.

Don't get me wrong I love carbs but my attitude towards them in sumemr is completely different to winter. I've got a couple of holidays coming up so have been on about >20g carbs a day (I aim for zero, but have a bit of milk). Originally it killed me, but 2 months in and I've lost no strength whatsoever. I'm only training to maintain at the moment though. The no glycogen thing makes me feel skinnier, but I have abs then, and when I have a refeed I feel massive! I've loved the results so much I'm gonna attempt bulking like this with a a couple of days a week carb loading, in the winter.


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 5:16 am 
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NightFaLL wrote:
I think it's recently been proven that the every 2-3 hours thing isn't optimal at all. Something about the decreased insulin sensitivity due to constant influx of nutrients (kind of like building up an immunity).

Most of the top experts I read recommend 3-4 large meals a day scheduled around workout times. (1 Pre-WO, 2-3 PWO)

Edit:

Also, it depends on how he's eating at 400g/day. If he's doing a paleo-esque diet, I would think it'd be fairly normal if you're a large guy.

Carbs, from what i understand, are protein sparing - meaning the more of them you ingest the less protein you need to eat to increase muscle size.

I personally, while dieting, eat about 225pro/150-200carbs/70fat and while maintaining the only thing that will go up is the carbs/fat slightly


I really don't think it's been "proven".... However, it depends who you read I guess. I've not seen anyone recommend fewer meals over more frequent meals in ages. However, what works and what's optimal are different things. By disagreeing with what you think is 'optimal', i'm not saying that what you're doing isn't working. I just don't see the logic in it, that's all... In my own experience, too, I've recently been somewhat jumping around from more frequent meals to less frequent and larger meals due to schedule and it deffinitly doesn't feel better for me. I can feel Ironmans influence here and want to say that this why anecdotal evidence is insignificant in most cases.

KPj


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 5:28 am 
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Rucifer wrote:
I'm with nightfall on the eating meals. I might eat a small snack inbetween meals but eating more than 3 meals just makes me feel the equivalent of bloated on food. It's different than just feeling "full".

Wow, 400 grams a day? That takes talent if you ask me!


I love that bloated feeling but only really get if if I need to eat less meals per day and therefore a lot more calories per meal :wink:

Also, you 'adjust' to more calories, more protein, etc. I used to struggle with 25-30g in one sitting and I can comfortably double that now and I could probably train 45 minutes after it. I used to think GOMAD (9 pints of full fat milk per day) was a joke and no one could do it until I realised that, recently, i've been averaging about 5 per day. I hardly even noticed i was drinking as much milk. I could do GOMAD no problem now (i dont' want to do GOMAD, or even drink 5 pints per day but, needs must).

Similarly, I drink 1 litre of full cream milk PW. It has 810 calories in it. I used to get half way down it, feel bloated, and have to put it in the fridge for a while then go back to it. Now I drink it like it's just another pint of milk and don't need a break.

KPj


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 5:31 am 
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One thing which would be good to know is why is it beneficial to go high fat vs high protein?

Let's just suppose that nygmen was sold and decided to replace a lot of his protein with good fats. What benefit would that give him over getting the calories from protein ?

KPj


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 6:03 am 
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KPj wrote:
One thing which would be good to know is why is it beneficial to go high fat vs high protein?

Let's just suppose that nygmen was sold and decided to replace a lot of his protein with good fats. What benefit would that give him over getting the calories from protein ?

KPj


I know the main benefits for me (anecdotally i'm afraid :wink: ) are cost, half pint of cream a day is a nice 650 kcals, plus i don't have to think about eating as much when i can get my calories in such a dense form. I don't do well on large quantities of food so the more kcals gram for gram the better.

Also socially, as anything over 200 grams protein makes me quite unpopular on nights out!!


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 6:38 am 
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KPj wrote:
One thing which would be good to know is why is it beneficial to go high fat vs high protein?

Let's just suppose that nygmen was sold and decided to replace a lot of his protein with good fats. What benefit would that give him over getting the calories from protein ?

KPj


I agree with the high protein intake (although I could never consume that much protein on a daily basis!) it's just that I'd get my calories from fat most of the time as opposed to carbs, and only really use carbs as a sort of performance enhancer. With insulin sensitivity up, and the utilisation of fatty acids as a fuel up you get the best of both worlds i.e leaner gains. But still, it's quicker to put weight on eating everything but until I started cutting a couple of months ago it's scary to see how much fat I'd put on in the last six months even though I looked relatively lean.


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 7:48 am 
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dale2177 wrote:

Also socially, as anything over 200 grams protein makes me quite unpopular on nights out!!


Supplement fiber. And once you start carrying more muscle, that goes away. That and if you are drinking shakes, stop drinking the cheap stuff. If you are have 2 and 3 bowel movements a day the gas should go away. When I was smaller I was the same way. Now I space out my protein better, and as long as I stay under 100g in one sitting I'm fine.

psyillium husk is a gift from god when you are eating to gain.

Also, I have never, from any guru or "bro" seen someone say: "You wanna gain more muscle? Eat more fat."

I'm not the smartest guy in the world, and no, I don't know everything, but eat more fat for bigger muscles just seems like 2+2=3. I guess I'm wrong, but my intuition tells me to be cautious with that one.

It's also funny, that if I was to say Lyle or Alan was full of $h1t you guys would jump down my throat. But because Dante actually owns companies that work in the industry and has arms well over 20" himself, but doesn't live off of research papers, he is full of $h1t?

:roll:

Can we just lock this thread and let it die?


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 7:59 am 
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First I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

Both approaches call for low carb so I'm going to ignore them.

To me high protein is significantly over 1g/lb body weight. What I call moderate (1g/lb) is called high protein in the popular press because it's at least twice the minimal recommended amount. Atkins would be an example. A moderate protein/high fat diet would be the equivelant of getting most of your calories from meat or other animal sources. Getting a high protein/low fat diet would require an artificial diet of mostly protein powders and lean meats like chicken.

From a paleo perspective, using meat as an baseline would suggest that 2:1 fat:protein calorie ratio is optimal for long term health. Those that have attempted a long term lean meat diet with closer to 1:1 ratio experience problems that are corrected by adding in more fat. This would be similar to rabbit starvation.

Many bodybuilders do follow this high protein approach of chicken and protein powder but few do it for more than a few weeks. For example, Ronnie Coleman eats like that prior to competion and looses up to 60 lbs prior to contest. Outside of that pre contest period, he eats moderate protein.

I know this is addressed better in the new Atkins book but my wife has my copy. I'll look up the reference on the weekend.

Looking this up on the internet is hard because what most people call high protein is actually the lower protein approach I'm recommending.

As for what type of fat I recommend, it's mostly saturated and monunsaturated with equal O3 & O6, similar to what might be found in wild meat and fish.


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 9:59 am 
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stuward wrote:

Many bodybuilders do follow this high protein approach of chicken and protein powder but few do it for more than a few weeks.


I'm not sure where you are getting this, and Stu I mean no disrespect, but you are incorrect.

Most people with the goal of above average muscle size, not general fitness look good naked goals, are eating well in excess of 1.5-2g per pound of protein a day, for years at a time.


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 10:07 am 
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Take it as my opinion then. In my opinion, those taking massive amounts of protein are wasting their money and harming their health. Kpj asked why I think 1g/lb and higher fat is better than 2g/lb and lower fat. I don't don't care how many actually eat one way or another. Most people eat high carb/low fat/low protein but it doesn't make them right.


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 11:05 am 
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Here's Tom Venutu's "Extreme" protein diet.

http://www.gain-weight-muscle-fast.com/ ... ake-3.html

He only gets to the 2g/lb stage imediately before the competion. He's the most protein extreme expert I could find.


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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 11:45 am 
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KPj wrote:
NightFaLL wrote:
I think it's recently been proven that the every 2-3 hours thing isn't optimal at all. Something about the decreased insulin sensitivity due to constant influx of nutrients (kind of like building up an immunity).

Most of the top experts I read recommend 3-4 large meals a day scheduled around workout times. (1 Pre-WO, 2-3 PWO)

Edit:

Also, it depends on how he's eating at 400g/day. If he's doing a paleo-esque diet, I would think it'd be fairly normal if you're a large guy.

Carbs, from what i understand, are protein sparing - meaning the more of them you ingest the less protein you need to eat to increase muscle size.

I personally, while dieting, eat about 225pro/150-200carbs/70fat and while maintaining the only thing that will go up is the carbs/fat slightly


I really don't think it's been "proven".... However, it depends who you read I guess. I've not seen anyone recommend fewer meals over more frequent meals in ages. However, what works and what's optimal are different things. By disagreeing with what you think is 'optimal', i'm not saying that what you're doing isn't working. I just don't see the logic in it, that's all... In my own experience, too, I've recently been somewhat jumping around from more frequent meals to less frequent and larger meals due to schedule and it deffinitly doesn't feel better for me. I can feel Ironmans influence here and want to say that this why anecdotal evidence is insignificant in most cases.

KPj


Quote:
Increased meal frequency does not promote greater weight loss in subjects who were prescribed an 8-week equi-energetic energy-restricted diet.
Cameron JD, Cyr MJ, Doucet E.

Behavioural and Metabolic Research Unit, School of Human Kinetics, University of Ottawa, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.
Abstract
There have been reports of an inverse relationship between meal frequency (MF) and adiposity. It has been postulated that this may be explained by favourable effects of increased MF on appetite control and possibly on gut peptides as well. The main goal of the present study was to investigate whether using a high MF could lead to a greater weight loss than that obtained with a low MF under conditions of similar energy restriction. Subjects were randomised into two treatment arms (high MF = 3 meals+3 snacks/d or low MF = 3 meals/d) and subjected to the same dietary energy restriction of - 2931 kJ/d for 8 weeks. Sixteen obese adults (n 8 women and 8 men; age 34.6 (sd 9.5); BMI 37.1 (sd 4.5) kg/m2) completed the study. Overall, there was a 4.7 % decrease in body weight (P < 0.01); similarly, significant decreases were noted in fat mass ( - 3.1 (sd 2.9) kg; P < 0.01), lean body mass ( - 2.0 (sd 3.1) kg; P < 0.05) and BMI ( - 1.7 (sd 0.8) kg/m2; P < 0.01). However, there were NS differences between the low- and high-MF groups for adiposity indices, appetite measurements or gut peptides (peptide YY and ghrelin) either before or after the intervention. We conclude that increasing MF does not promote greater body weight loss under the conditions described in the present study.


One on body fat loss.

I've read a few more that show a lack of improvement of protein synthesis due to increased meal frequency. Basically, the old BB belief that you have to constantly infuse the body with protein has been shown false.

It actually takes somewhere around 24-28 hours for muscle to become catabolic (while completely fasted, no food at all).

Obviously, if you train, PWO nutrition is essential and eating a lot right after it is important, but it's not necessary to eat every 2-4 hours like people think.

I personally have always just ate huge meals after I got done lifting (4 dbl cheeseburgers, 2 large fries from BK PWO when I was bulking ^_^).

I actually prefer intermittent fasting now per leangains.com recommendations.


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