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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Stu (more serious answer):

I think it depends on if your perspective is "movement of the load" or "what the body does".

If you imagine a rope connected to a load, you could pull it towards yourself using a rowing bicep curl like motion, or you could turn and face away push with a bench/tricep extension like movement. If you think only of movement of the load, I guess you could call both a "pull" since physics says you can't "push a rope".

However, I don''t think this is the right frame of reference. I think you will end up grouping exercises together that hit opposite sides of the body for (to me) arbitrary decisions of how the load moves, rather than the more importan issue of what the body does and what muscles are moved.

Think about a bench press. If you do it with barbell, it is a push. would you change it to a "pull" if you had a band that you were lengthening? Or if you had chains hanging off? Or some sort of suspended load that was beneath you? That doesn't make sense, since the major msucles worked would still be triceps (and chest and shoulder) an all cases, the mechanical aspects outside the body would just be arbitrary (the muscles don't know that, they have no eyes or a brain).

I bet if you talk to Rip or Lyle or Bret they will back me up.

Here's another example: have you seen the discovery channel program about the biomechanics of strongmen pulling tractor trailers? They looked at the loading and timing and all and found that, what really happened was a multi-repitition single leg squat. Now from the perspectvive of the truck, the guy is "pulling the truck". But from a training/performance perspective, it's single leg squats (even if you still disagree with me, watch the program there are other cool insights unrelated to our discussion).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:55 pm 
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We went through this before, comparing upright rows to overhead presses, for example. The same muscles but ones a pull and ones a push. The discussion started out with flys, raises or something. The bottom line is that Push/Pull is an relatively arbitrary notation that depends on the direction the weight is moving. Yes, it's true you can't deadlift without pushing with the legs but it's still a pulling exercise.

From a practical point of view it doesn't matter. Do it the way Peter said and split the lower body as hip dominant or quad dominant.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:07 pm 
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I'm not really sure why I am jumping in on this, but oh well..

In this Video, Rippetoe calls the Deadlift a PULL or PULLING MOTION, multiple times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Ht363Hs ... re=related

In this Video, the Deadlift Setup, the last thing Rip says is
Quote:
Squeeze your Chest up in the air and PULL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syt7A23YnpA

I don't have my Starting Strength book handy to read exactly what is said about the deadlift, but it's pretty obvious to many hear and Rippetoe that the Deadlift is a pull.

I can say for me, I could truly care less if it's a Push or a Pull. My Goal is to move more weight over time and generally get stronger.

Cliff


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:54 pm 
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Quote:
As for deadlifts/squats, most here prefer hip dominant/quad dominant as opposed to push/pull. Deadlifts emphasize hip extension more (thus "pull") and squats emphasize knee extension more ("push"), although they both involve extension of the knee and hip.


End of discussion.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:56 pm 
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I'm cool with you guys. :smile:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:00 pm 
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jml wrote:
Quote:
As for deadlifts/squats, most here prefer hip dominant/quad dominant as opposed to push/pull. Deadlifts emphasize hip extension more (thus "pull") and squats emphasize knee extension more ("push"), although they both involve extension of the knee and hip.


End of discussion.


I'm not cool with you. Hip extension is EXTENSION. Differentiating which joint does more (hip or knee) is a different concept than discussion extensoion versus flexion.

In bench press type movements, both the triceps (elbow straighenting and chest/delts (upper arm movement) are involved to differeint amounts depending on the exact motions of your lift. but it's all a push.

A squat (or deadlift) involves extending BOTH the hips and knees. there is more to talking about which joint extends, though, there is flexion! That's why I do, bent knee cable flexikons down on the deck...and why I do L seats up on the P bars!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:15 pm 
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1. DL feels like a pull.
2. DL looks like a pull.
3. When any experienced lifter uses the word "pull" by itself, he (or she) is refering to the DL (as in "Ah pulled a ton yesterday").
4. When one talks about "pull" as opposed to "push" one is talking about the upper body. It's not a useful distinction most of the time in talking about legs.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:22 pm 
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Experienced docs said that stomach ulcers came from stress and prescribed milk and tranqs for them...and stuck to their guns for like 20 years in the face of more and more scientific evidence. :wink:

Maybe I deserve a physics Nobel prize for changing the terminology on deadlifts! Phone Stockholm! :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:23 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
4. When one talks about "pull" as opposed to "push" one is talking about the upper body. It's not a useful distinction most of the time in talking about legs.


so...I'm goofy for doing L seats on P bars and lying bent leg cable flexions, where I take up space on the deck and such? :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:30 pm 
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ApolytonGP wrote:
Jungledoc wrote:
4. When one talks about "pull" as opposed to "push" one is talking about the upper body. It's not a useful distinction most of the time in talking about legs.


so...I'm goofy for doing L seats on P bars and lying bent leg cable flexions, where I take up space on the deck and such? :wink:
To be honest, I don't know what those are.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:41 pm 
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L seats on P bars aren't goofy. You don't see many doing them because they're hard but they are a useful exercise.

http://www.drillsandskills.com/article/15


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:49 pm 
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So what part of this
Quote:
As for deadlifts/squats, most here prefer hip dominant/quad dominant as opposed to push/pull. Deadlifts emphasize hip extension more (thus "pull") and squats emphasize knee extension more ("push"), although they both involve extension of the knee and hip.

Are you arguing with? This is as clear as it gets and acknowledges that it's not black and white and they are similar movements.


Last edited by jml on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:50 pm 
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I'm cool with that quote, JML. Good remark.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:21 am 
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Would be handy, in future, if you could just 'assume' for the purpose of keeping things relevant, that a deadlift is a 'pull' so that, hopefully, every time the DL is brought up (which is a lot), we don't start beating dead horses again. Sometimes when threads get side tracked it can be quite beneficial but, the whole push vs pull thing is as bizarre as it is pointless. Everyone else calls it a pull. By definition, it's a pull. By Poly's definition, it's a push therefore, the only time referring to a DL as a push would ever make sense is if you were in a discussion with Poly. Therefore, lets just call it a "pull" for the sake of general sanity.

:sign3:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:17 pm 
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Poly, I think this thread contains the dumbest things you have ever said. WTF?!


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