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I think I learned about the Independence War and not about the Civil War, don't really know anymore. I got to dig out my history books from a few years ago.

Yes, I was indeed doing that, intentionally and as hyperbolic as I could. It was kind of a tit for tat thing to show you how ridiculous you are being. You recognized what I was doing, but don't seem to understand you were doing the same. That's the problem.

What you do is equate everything from conception onwards with a third trimester fetus. However when it is an embryo or a zygote, it is not even a fetus by definition. The things that develop enough to make this fetus a person do not happen until around the start of the third trimester.

Most third trimester abortions are done for medical reasons and in those cases the woman WANTED the baby. It was NOT her choice, both her and the baby would die if she continued.

Your side of course likes to pretend that the very rare elective third trimester abortion is the norm. It most certainly is not.

I actually think elective third trimester abortions are wrong, but I don't think criminalizing them is the answer. I think women need easy access to abortion rather than the roadblocks that some like to put in their way. That way they can do it BEFORE that.

Another misrepresentation of pro-choice is that it's all about "Yeah lets go kill some babies! Woo-hoo!". It is not like that at all. Nobody likes abortion, not even pro-choice. We all want to reduce elective abortions to as close to 0 as possible. We just have different methods.

Your side would like to criminalize and there is also a big overlap with people who make the problem worse through abstinence only education and keeping kids ignorant and unprepared.

Where as on my side of it we want to do the same thing, but through education. This include comprehensive sex education, so kids are informed and prepared for whenever the time comes. We also support emergency contraception to keep the zygote from implanting in case the couple was not prepared.

I don't know if you are going to understand any of that, and/or WANT to understand it. But there it is, the truth about it without any of the hyperbolic propaganda. Notice the conspicuous absence of Nazi comparisons? None of that "pro-abortion" and "anti-choice" nonsensical strawman-based name calling. Come to think of it their given names are actually gross misrepresentations of the issue too. They should really be called pro-criminalization and anti-criminalization.

As far as the civil war goes...... Yes, I do know that later it was turned into a states right symbol and it was all about rebellion and standing up for yourself.

However, that said, I agree with Hoosegow on this one.

Most of your above comments are directed at a position other than mine, and there are more than just two sides to the issue.

As you may have forgotten, I previously mentioned that I agree with the principles of existing Supreme Court precedent that the rights of the unborn grow over time as the child itself grows. There are conflicting liberties at work, and neither party's rights are absolute throughout the pregnancy. Of course I continue to assert that die-hard libertarians can disagree on the nuances at hand, without either side being more or less libertarian.

(I agree that generally anti-abortion-criminalization advocates are not pro-abortion, and your assessment of the rabid abortion-criminalization/anti-contraceptive groups is fair in as much as it describes that somewhat extreme and small position.)

Would a hard core libertarian (who doesn't obsess on argueing and dreaming and read Ayn Rand...but tries to do things) have supported John Brown?

Are you incapable of mentioning libertarianism without associating it with masturbation?

I cut it. I actually respect how grown up people are here, despite being huge. I have this tendancy to overuse aggressive phrasing on the net for effect and laughs. It's actually gotten a lot better than when I drank.

Don't drink and post.

That just makes me want to drink and post. Cause I'm a rebel.

I used to drunkpost a lot. but i stopped drinking a year ago.

If you mean disagreeing about whether it is right or wrong, than yes, that has nothing to do with it. However being for or against criminalization of a major issue like someones bodily autonomy, has a lot to do with whether someone fits the definition of libertarian or not.

Then there is also what people usually mean when they use the word. Usually they mean someone who agrees with the Libertarian party platform, which is a very narrow definition. One that even excludes me as I am left wing rather than right wing.

Do you mean Harry Browne? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Ayn Rand is like dumbed-down Nietzsche.

That may be one of the funniest things I've read and yet surprisingly accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist)

I'm actually kind of surprised you've read any Nietzsche. I wouldn't have guessed you would be into such things.