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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:00 pm 
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From a previous post called "Raw Oats", I realize I don't understand much about carbs. This article by Poliquin says
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Since insulin sensitivity is at its highest after the workout, this is the time to take in your carbs to maximize muscle mass gains.
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/33/Poliquins_Top_10_Carb_Intake_Rules_for_Optimal_Bod.aspx

So starting with the basics, why do you need carbs for muscle mass? -- I thought that was the purpose of protein.
And why would the time when insulin sensitivity is high be the right time to eat carbs?

Feel free to direct me any articles/books -- just be gentle, I'm new at this.

TIA


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:14 am 
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bam wrote:
From a previous post called "Raw Oats", I realize I don't understand much about carbs. This article by Poliquin says
Quote:
Since insulin sensitivity is at its highest after the workout, this is the time to take in your carbs to maximize muscle mass gains.
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/33/Poliquins_Top_10_Carb_Intake_Rules_for_Optimal_Bod.aspx

So starting with the basics, why do you need carbs for muscle mass? -- I thought that was the purpose of protein.
And why would the time when insulin sensitivity is high be the right time to eat carbs?

Feel free to direct me any articles/books -- just be gentle, I'm new at this.

TIA


Protein is used to repair tissue, so 'build' muscle. But carbs stimulate the secretion of insulin. Insulin is an anabolic hormone, it stores/builds/creates new tissue. When insulin sensitivity is high, you need less insulin to store the carbs in the cells, and there is less chance of storing it in fat cells especially because of the depletion of glycogen in the muscles fter exercise. Realisitically, if you purely want to gain muscle, you shouldn't worry about a little fat gain because you need to make use of anabolic hormones such as insulin. But it works both ways, anabolism causes fat storages as well. It is possible to gain muscle mass without carbs, and therefore less fat gain, but in my opinion for best results you should do one or the other. Doing something in the middle will result in middle results.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:39 pm 
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Nevage wrote:
...carbs stimulate the secretion of insulin. Insulin is an anabolic hormone, it stores/builds/creates new tissue. When insulin sensitivity is high, you need less insulin to store the carbs in the cells...

First of all, Thanks for taking the time to explain.
I'm a little confused because there seems to be some circular logic going on. Carbs stimulate the secretion of insulin, but then insulin is needed to store carbs? What's the purpose of storing carbs in cells? Energy stores? Byproduct?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:51 pm 
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bam wrote:
Nevage wrote:
...carbs stimulate the secretion of insulin. Insulin is an anabolic hormone, it stores/builds/creates new tissue. When insulin sensitivity is high, you need less insulin to store the carbs in the cells...

First of all, Thanks for taking the time to explain.
I'm a little confused because there seems to be some circular logic going on. Carbs stimulate the secretion of insulin, but then insulin is needed to store carbs? What's the purpose of storing carbs in cells? Energy stores? Byproduct?


Glycogen is stored in the muscle cells and liver for immediate energy use. The capacity of the muscles and liver is small and this gets used first. Insulin promotes the long term storage of carbs as body fat. At most times, when insulin is present any blood sugar gets stored as fat and can't be used for glycogen. Once the insulin is gone, the stored body fat can be used for glycogen replacement. Immediately after exercise, your body is hungry for the glycogen and the insulin moves the glycogen to the muscles instead of body fat, until the muscles are full and then the excess goes to fat.

This is simplistic and falls apart in a person with diabetes or insulin resistance.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:21 pm 
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So why do I need to eat carbs after I exercise? I understand that the glycogen in the muscle is low but do I really need the extra energy? After all, I just completed my workout. And, on top of that, don't I risk adding excess fat since any excess carbs will be turned to fat and I'm not going to be exerting myself to the same level until my next workout?
Then there's the Poliquin quote:
Quote:
Since insulin sensitivity is at its highest after the workout, this is the time to take in your carbs to maximize muscle mass gains.

I thought muscle mass gains requires protein -- he does recommend taking protein post-workout -- but, how does eating carbs maximize muscle gains? I thought carbs are turned to glycogen which is muscle energy.

I ordered the book "Sport Nutrition" (2ed) to help me understand this stuff. It'll take a month to get here, and probably 3 months for me to read. It's all new to me. My background is communications technology and business -- so it should be quite a challenge.... and certainly worthwhile.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:31 pm 
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It's debatable as to any post workout benefit to carbs unless you have a second workout coming up. It also helps with the post-workout pump.

http://www.musclehack.com/post-workout- ... roductive/


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:14 pm 
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thank you for your sharing. Before that I can not distinguish insulin but now i have the clear ideas.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:26 am 
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ltm0807 wrote:
thank you for your sharing. Before that I can not distinguish insulin but now i have the clear ideas.


I see that familiar bit of broken English and that APNIC IP address. That sort of contrived context is there too. I got my eye on you. Don't even think about putting links in anything.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:31 pm 
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Ironman wrote:
ltm0807 wrote:
thank you for your sharing. Before that I can not distinguish insulin but now i have the clear ideas.


I see that familiar bit of broken English and that APNIC IP address. That sort of contrived context is there too. I got my eye on you. Don't even think about putting links in anything.


lolohhhhhhh


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Preemptive
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:04 pm 
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Ironman wrote:
I see that familiar bit of broken English and that APNIC IP address. That sort of contrived context is there too. I got my eye on you. Don't even think about putting links in anything.

I've been living in Asia for awhile and I have yet to have someone say something to me that wasn't contrived and in broken English.:toothy7:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:05 pm 
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bam wrote:
Ironman wrote:
I see that familiar bit of broken English and that APNIC IP address. That sort of contrived context is there too. I got my eye on you. Don't even think about putting links in anything.

I've been living in Asia for awhile and I have yet to have someone say something to me that wasn't contrived and in broken English.:toothy7:
He's not saying that they're all spammers--just this particular IP.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:58 pm 
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Yea, it's certain networks. There is a bad spam problem in some areas there.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:32 am 
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Found this article that answers lots of questions. How accurate is this info?

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Protein & carbs: carbohydrates and protein have been misunderstood for years.
Here are the top 10 myths that plague your diet and your physique
Muscle & Fitness, Sept, 2005 by Chris Aceto

Sports nutrition is full of half-baked truths (read: myths) that often keep us from figuring out just how to eat to maximize muscle gains or fat loss or both. One reason for the confusion is that what people have been doing all along often conflicts with what the latest research recommends. Here, M & F tackles the 10 biggest carbohydrate and protein myths and untangles the misinformation that might be holding you back from shaping your next 10 pounds of lean mass. Read, apply and enjoy your new muscle.

(Carb Myths)

CARB MYTH #1: CARBOHYDRATES MAKE YOU FAT
The real culprit is excess calories. Calories, the fuel derived from all three macronutrients--carbohydrates, protein and dietary fat--increase the body's ability to manufacture bodyfat. Carbs have gotten a bum rap because research shows that lower-carbohydrate diets are effective for obese individuals, who are extremely overweight and seldom exercise. For the individual trying to build metabolically active muscle tissue, carbs are a must-have. They fuel the body for exercise, help drive protein into muscles for growth and prevent the breakdown of hard-earned muscle mass. In addition, weight-training individuals store a disproportionate amount of their carbohydrate intake within muscles, called muscle glycogen. Only after glycogen stores are full will carbs seriously impact bodyfat stores.

MYTH BUSTER: How many carbs you should eat depends on your metabolism and how hard you train, but a good starting point is about 2 grams per pound of bodyweight per day.


CARB MYTH #2: EATING CARBS AT NIGHT MAKES YOU FAT
Many dieters restrict their carb intake at night, limiting them-selves to protein powder, poultry, fish and vegetables sometime after 5 p.m. The belief is that carbs eaten at night will unequivocally be stored as bodyfat, which is generally true, as insulin sensitivity decreases at night. But here's the problem: If you train after work at 7 p.m. and finish by 9, you must eat carbohydrates in your post-training meal to kick-start the muscle-building process. If you avoid carbohydrates you'll fail to support the growth process and, worse, it could increase your cortisol, a hormone that can lower testosterone levels and chew away muscle mass, causing a drop in your metabolic rate. That's the biggest concern, because when the metabolic rate declines, the body becomes really good at storing bodyfat.

MYTH BUSTER: Consume 50 grams of carbohydrates (in addition to protein) to kick-start the rebuilding process in the meal following your workout. If you don't gain bodyfat from eating that much, boost it to 70-80 grams.


CARB MYTH #3: CARBS DON'T BUILD MUSCLE
Carbohydrates directly support muscle-building by fueling muscles, helping them to remain anabolic. Energy-starved muscles quickly fall out of an anabolic state and fail to grow. Carbs also create a special hormonal environment that plays a critical role in growth--they initiate the release of insulin, which increases protein uptake by muscles. Insulin also helps muscles take in testosterone, the body's chief muscle-building hormone.

MYTH BUSTER: Besides eating enough carbs for the day, eat an adequate portion in your post-training meal, anywhere from 70-100 grams for growth and repair.


CARB MYTH #4: YOU HAVE TO EAT LOW-GLYCEMIC CARBS TO GET RIPPED
The glycemic index is a tool that rates carbohydrates based on the speed at which they digest. In theory, faster-digesting carbs are more efficient at stimulating the fat-storing process. However, combining high-protein foods with fast-digesting carbs or fiber-rich vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, mushrooms and green beans skews the index rating. For example, rice cakes--which are digested very fast--digest markedly slower when combined with sliced turkey, fat-free cheese or peanut butter, and even more slowly if you add a small portion of vegetables. Combinations like this change the index rating on carbs, relegating the glycemic rating idea to mythical status.

MYTH BUSTER: The best meals for building mass and shedding fat come from combining different foods--starchy carbs, protein and vegetables--along with the small amounts of fat naturally occurring in protein foods.


CARB MYTH #5: MUSCLES HAVE TO BE FULLY CARB-LOADED FOR MAXIMAL MUSCLE GROWTH
Muscle glycogen--the collection of stored carbohydrates within muscles--provides fuel for hard training and supports recovery, but glycogen reserves don't have to be topped off to maximize growth. You can run a car all-out on half a tank of gas, and you can train like Mr. O on less than "full" glycogen stores. Other factors play a large role in the muscle-building process, such as protein intake and meal timing: Eat 5-7 times a day to maximize nutrient uptake and absorption.

MYTH BUSTER: Eat a moderate-carbohydrate snack, about 30-40 grams of carbs with 20 grams of protein, an hour before training. A small bowl of oats with protein powder mixed in is a favorite.


(Protein Myths)

PROTEIN MYTH #1: THE SKY'S THE LIMIT
Muscleheads continue to eat more and more protein yet often miss the mark in understanding what causes growth. Sure, protein is a must, but higher-protein diets are sometimes scant in carbohydrates. For muscle-building, you're better off eating more carbohydrates than protein because the two nutrients work synergistically, upgrading the ability to drive aminos into muscles and resulting in growth.

MYTH BUSTER: Start with a minimum of 2 grams of carbohydrate and 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight per day (see Protein Myth #3 for exceptions).


PROTEIN MYTH #2: ALL PROTEIN IS THE SAME
Nope, some proteins digest faster than others. Whey protein, egg whites and some fish rapidly reach the bloodstream while casein protein, red meat, poultry and whole eggs are slower. Faster-digesting proteins are best in the morning to reverse the overnight fast when the body sometimes falls out of a growth state. They're also best before and after training, when the body needs immediate sources of protein to help prevent muscle breakdown. At other times of day, slower-digesting proteins do just fine.

MYTH BUSTER: Have your whey protein shakes early in the day and after a workout, and save casein for later in the day.

PROTEIN MYTH #3: 1 GRAM PER POUND OF BODYWEIGHT RULES THE DAY
We're told the body needs a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight daily. Guess what? Though fairly accurate, that number is an estimate. When calories drop, such as when you eat drastically less fat or reduce carbs to shed bodyfat, you'll need more protein, upward of 1.5 grams per pound, to keep from burning muscle tissue for energy. Training intensity, frequency and duration play a role, too. The harder you train and the more muscle damage you incur, the more protein you need to rebuild those damaged fibers. If you train six days a week, you'll need more protein than if you trained just four times, and if your workouts are longer in duration, you might need to bump your protein above the I-gram benchmark.

MYTH BUSTER: Many who complain of inferior muscle recovery might just need more protein--between 1.2 grams and 1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight daily.


PROTEIN MYTH #4: YOU NEED PROTEIN SUPPLEMENTS TO GROW
Though fairly economical and extremely convenient, protein powders don't have to be part of a muscle-building diet. Muscle-building can be achieved with real food. Just ask three-time Arnold Classic champion Jay Cutler: When he started out, he couldn't afford supplements, so he consumed up to 50 egg whites a day and a couple of pounds of chicken, compliments of the farm he lived on as a 19-year-old. In the next two years, eating nothing but egg whites, chicken, oatmeal, pasta and potatoes, Jay gained an amazing 50 pounds of mass. Powders are good, but growth still boils down to eating sufficient protein, carbohydrates and calories to repair and fuel the body.

MYTH BUSTER: For convenience, many trainees find that alternating a solid meal with a protein shake is an ideal way to eat up to seven times a day.


PROTEIN MYTH #5: PROTEIN CAN'T MAKE YOU FAT
Excess anything--protein, carbohydrates or dietary fat--can make you fat. If you require 2,600 calories daily, meet that requirement yet still eat a chicken meal and a protein shake above that amount, the excess protein will be sent to the liver, converted to glucose and eventually make its way to fat stores. Though protein seems to be a little less efficient at making bodyfat than dietary fat and carbohydrates, don't fall into the trap of believing protein is exempt from making and storing bodyfat.

MYTH BUSTER: Don't just count protein and carbs throughout the day; count all calories to ensure you won't exceed your daily caloric requirements.


Carbs: What to Eat and When

Breakfast
2 whole-wheat pancakes
Slow-digesting carbs for sustained energy

Lunch
Pasta with broccoli
Broccoli adds fiber vitamins; pasta offers crash-free energy

Preworkout
(30-60 min. before)
Oatmeal with fruit
Combination of slow-and fast-absorbing carbs provides immediate and sustained energy

Dinner
Brown rice, black beans, veggies
Increases insulin sensitivity to minimize carbs being stored as fat

Bedtime (for mass-gaining)
Multigrain bread or bran muffin
Low-glycemic carbs keep insulin levels low and help build muscle while you sleep

QUICK INTAKE
Consume 30-40 grams of carbs with 20 grams of protein an hour before training.

Save your fast-digesting proteins like whey, egg whites and fish for early in the morning, pre- and post-workout.

COPYRIGHT 2005 Weider Publications
COPYRIGHT 2005 Gale Group


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:53 am 
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The article was written in 2005. A lot of new information has come out since then, but it's not wrong. One popular e-book at the time by Tom Venuto had similar info to this. His latest book is quite different. Basically he baselines the protein and fat requirements and varies the carbs to meet your needs.

The author of the article you posted has this on his web site which is probably his latest opinion.

http://www.nutramedia.com/nutrition.cgi

It's basically a carb cycling approach similar to Venuto's.

Keep in mind these are body building diets. They require constant monitoring of your body's response to the dietary inputs.

He also uses a lot of round numbers that assume a certain level of activity and a mesomorphic body type. All successful body builders and most atheletes are mesomorphs. Most of the rest of us are not.


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