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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:23 pm 
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I can't seem to find the thread about the best accessory lifts for the three big powerlifting lifts. Anyway, I've been thinking about the best way to program those lifts. Do you put them in place of the main lift on one of your days? For instance, I have a heavy squat day and a light squat day. Maybe I'd just do box squats on the heavy day for a while, and to regular on light.

Or, do you add them in later in the w/o. So throw in a few sets of box after regular squats on on of those days. Or rearrange the whole template to get them in on another day. You could argue that you could take them heavier if they were on their own day. I don't know where I'd fit that in, or if I could take recovery-wise.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:57 pm 
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that article was pretty good. I remember a couple of summers ago I trained with this old guy who was strong as hell, he'd been 3rd place amateur powerlifting champion 1994. He was cool, he was only like 5 foot 1. His workout was:

1st day - squats and farmer's walks
2nd day - Bench and tricep extensions
3rd day - deadlifts and chins

how's that for accessory lifts? I bet if you just did that routine from now on you'd be a monster in no time.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:02 pm 
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If that were all it took to make me a monster, I'd have been one a long time ago!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:57 am 
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The answer here is really both, or all of the above, and, "it depends"....

The PL club that I briefly trained at pretty much done what Robertscott mentioned. Squat bench and DL day. Anything else was an "assistance" exercise so, for example, good morning would be after squats. Floor press would be after benching. Etc.

However you also have the Westside based or influenced templates where you rotate the big lifts. This is "variation without change" which is something i'm a big fan of. It seems to work for me and, most of all, I just really enjoy it. Westside in this case call them "special exercises" which is your box squats, specialty bars, board press, floor press, etc. Cressey also appears to be abig fan of this, if you've seen Maximum Strength or, more recently, Show and Go. In this examples you'll actually swap squats for a different squat variation or use a different bar (different bars are a luxury I don't have....) You'll do close grip incline press (for example) instead of bench pressing, for a while. You'll Sumo DL instead of conventional DL, or do snatch grip or deficit pulls.

For example, on my heavy bench days, past 3 weeks i've done Close grip incline press. The 4 weeks before that, I done floor press.

For me there's a big enjoyment factor in training different variations. I also love that, for example, last 8 weeks i improved on both variations that I used, and now i'm getting really excited to see what, if any effect it's had on my actual bench. I should of worked in a test by now on speed day, but i've had to do my speed day alone quite a lot recently, so can't/won't with no (reliable) spotters.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:11 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
I can't seem to find the thread about the best accessory lifts for the three big powerlifting lifts. Anyway, I've been thinking about the best way to program those lifts. Do you put them in place of the main lift on one of your days? For instance, I have a heavy squat day and a light squat day. Maybe I'd just do box squats on the heavy day for a while, and to regular on light.

Or, do you add them in later in the w/o. So throw in a few sets of box after regular squats on on of those days. Or rearrange the whole template to get them in on another day. You could argue that you could take them heavier if they were on their own day. I don't know where I'd fit that in, or if I could take recovery-wise.


Jungledoc,

This is the place you are looking for. http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7 ... =auxiliary

Here's my post on it.

A Different View On Auxiliary Exercises.

I view auxiliary exercises as a bit different that most.

I see using the powerlifts as a means of developing strength for that particular lifts more as a negative than a positive.

The key to developing strength for your competition squat, bench press and deadlift is through auxiliary exercises.

I am not alone in my view on this. Louie Simmons' West Side Training is built the use of auxiliary exercises for developing strength...NOT the powerlifts themselves.

Dr Tom McLaughlin (former powerlifter and PhD in exercise biomechanics) also promotes the use of auxiliary exercises as a mean of increasing strength for the powerlifts...NOT the powerlifts themselves.

McLaughlin's Bench Press More Now provide training information of how to use auxiliary exercises to increase strength and how to train the powerlifts for technique. You can get the book for about $20 at CrainsMuscleWorld.com

Let's examine some of history and reasoning for this.

Tradition Method

The traditional method is to use each of competition lifts as a training exercise. That means to increase you squat, you squat. To increase your bench press, you bench press. And to increase you deadlift, you deadlift.

The tradition method used by many was pretty much cut into stone until the early 1980s. That is when thing began to change.

A New Approach

In the early 1980s, Louie Simmons began to push the West Side Training Method. That method pretty much eliminated performing heavy sets of reps in the powerlifts: Squat, Bench Press and Deadlift.

Instead, the Squat, Bench Press and Deadlift training loads were dropped to 60% of 1 Repetition Max.

Each of the powerlifts were trained for Speed, NOT Strength!
Strength Training of each lift was developed by using Auxiliary Movements that were closely related to each of the powerlifts.
As an example, Powerlifting Squats were replaced with High Bar Squats, Zercher Squats, Front Squats, Belt Squats, etc.

Auxiliary Exercises were/are considered "Disposable". Disposable meaning you can train them into the ground in a training cycle and throw them away.

In your next cycle, you then use another Auxiliary Exercise that is similar in nature.

Thus, you could burn through High Bar Squats in one cycle and then in the next cycle use Zercher Squats.

One of the reasons for this was/is to insure that you don't overtrain any of the powerlifts.

However, this method of training also provides another benefit!

"Practice DOESN'T Make Perfect, Perfect Practice Make Perfect."
Vince Lombardi


One of the problems in using the powerlifts to increase strength is that in an all out effort for the last rep, the focus of every lifter is to push or pull the weight up...NO matter how you do it.

When this occurs, you are practicing bad technique. In fact, you are burning it into your "Mother Board"...you central nervous system.
As the saying goes, "Garbage in, garbage out. That meaning once you've ingrained bad technique into your "Mother Board", getting it out requires even more work.

Thus, another benefit to the West Side Method is that it allows you to develop better technique. The lighter loads allow you to increases power as well as focus on performing your squat, bench press and deadlift with proper technique.

The Down Side of West Side For Developing Technique

While the use of light loads with West Side will improve your technique, it does not completely translate to good technique with maximum loads.
One of the problems is the muscles fire differently when different load are used. The firing sequence/muscle involvement is not the same for load of 60% of 1 Repetition Max vs 100% of 1 Repetition Max.

You Lift Like You Train

To effectively elicit the best technique, you need to use training loads in each of the powerlfts that are close to you competition max. However, you want to make sure that in doing so that you do not overtrain your competition lifts.

To do that you need to perform only 1-2 repetitions per set. The focus of each rep is on technique, NOT weight.

At any point that you technique falls apart, STOP.

Summary:

1) The best Auxilary Exercises are those that are similar in nature to the powerlifts.

2) Use the Auxilary Exercises to increase strength.

3) Train the Powerlifts with Lighter Loads (60% or less) for power and technique

4) To develop technique use loads close to your competition max for 1-2 reps. Once you technique falls apart, STOP.

Bench Press Example

If your best competition bench press is 300 lbs. Start off performing singles in your bench press with 270 lbs. Perform 270 X 1 rep X 5-10 sets.

The next week, increase it. Perform 275 X 1 rep X 5-10 sets.

Keep increasing the weight each week.

How Many Sets?

The determining how many sets of singles to perform is TECHNIQUE.

If your technique falls apart in the 6th set, STOP! Don't do a 7th set. Do NOT perform any more sets, period. Go home or perform some auxiliary exercises.

Kenny Croxdale


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:31 am 
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My training is similar to KPj's, actually - we rotate "basic lifts" a lot, but the same themes appear - squatting, deadlifting, cleans/snatches, swings, jumps, sprinting.

How I train my two clients using 5/3/1 is probably more appropriate to you. They do their main lift without any changes at all week to week. Monday is trap bar deadlifts, Thursday is bench press. We just up the weights every cycle and keep on going.

The assistance work I change workout to workout. I always hit the same themes, but the exercises and reps change.

Deads - followed up with more deads or another bilateral lift (sandbag squats, sandbag loading, zercher squats, etc.), single leg exercises, abs, and explosive conditioning. I make the 5+ week very high volume, the 3+ week medium volume, and the 5/3/1 high volume, followed by a deload.

Example:

Trap Bar DL 5/5/5+
Trap Bar DL 5 x 10 @ 50% training max
One-Arm KB swings 3 x 12 per arm
Weighted Plank

or
Trap Bar DL 5/3/1+
Reverse Lunge 5 x 10 per leg
Swiss Ball Leg Curls 3 x 10
Prowler runs

...something like that. For bench I just mix in dumbbell benching, Kroc rows or one-arm DB rows, band rows, chinups/pullups, blast strap pushups, scarecrows, etc. along with some ab work and triceps/biceps/grip stuff.

Seems to work okay. The 80/20 rule says the main lift is the 80, anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:41 am 
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KPj wrote:
The answer here is really both, or all of the above, and, "it depends"....

KPJ,

The traditional method of uising the competition squat, bench press and deadlift to increase isn't the best idea. I provided information on that in my previous post.

Quote:
The PL club that I briefly trained at pretty much done what Robertscott mentioned. Squat bench and DL day. Anything else was an "assistance" exercise so, for example, good morning would be after squats. Floor press would be after benching. Etc.


Pole Valting and Shott Putting for REPS!

How many NON-stop reps in the vault does a pole vaulter perform in one set? How many NON-stop reps in the shot putt does a shot putter do?

The point is they DON'T perform mlti rep vault or shot putts. They forcus on one vault and putt at a time.

Strength is developed for the vault and shot putt in the weight room and with explosive movement out on the field.

Olympic Lifter follow basically the same protocol as pole vaulters and shot putters. Olympic Lifters employ 1-2 reps per set of pulls and jerks. The focus is on technique.

That information is provied in my previous post regarding McLaughlin's training protocol.

The Irony

The irony is that powerlifting should utilize the same method. However, many powerlifters are't smart enought to figure it out, let alone understand it.

Quote:
However you also have the Westside based or influenced templates where you rotate the big lifts. This is "variation without change" which is something i'm a big fan of. It seems to work for me and, most of all, I just really enjoy it. Westside in this case call them "special exercises" which is your box squats, specialty bars, board press, floor press, etc. Cressey also appears to be abig fan of this, if you've seen Maximum Strength or, more recently, Show and Go. In this examples you'll actually swap squats for a different squat variation or use a different bar (different bars are a luxury I don't have....) You'll do close grip incline press (for example) instead of bench pressing, for a while. You'll Sumo DL instead of conventional DL, or do snatch grip or deficit pulls.


EXACTLY.

However, one of the flaws in West Side is Box Squats. It makes NO sense to train all the time by pausing on the box.

You Lift Like You Train

Do you pause in a competition squat? NO!

Then why would teach yourself to pause on a squat ALL the time in training.

The stretch reflex is involved in a competition squat. The ONLY way to develop the stretch reflex is by TRAINING it.

Pausing on the box does NOT train the stretch reflex.

For example, on my heavy bench days, past 3 weeks i've done Close grip incline press. The 4 weeks before that, I done floor press.

Good example.

You're considered to be smart in powerlifting if you can string word together and make a coherent sentence.

If you can understand concepts and write coherent paragraphs, you considered to be a GENIUS in powerlifting!

In other words, you are a GENIUS.

Kenny Croxdale


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:35 am 
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Always appreciate your posts, Kenny. Thanks!

I think i'm with you on Box Squats. I'm in 2 minds, really. I think the effect depends on the lifter. I felt they really helped my squat at one point but, I think the main reason was that they taught me to sit back and use/train the stronger squatting muscle more, which I didn't really do, and they taught me to "explode" (after the pause).

I guess the Box Squats makes sense if you're a triple ply lifter. I have no experience with gear but from what i've read, the gear pops you out of the hole. In my mind the gear becomes an artificial stretch reflex so in that case, if you use it then it makes sense to use a movement that purposely dimishes th stretch reflex.

For people who just want a bigger raw squat, like myself, I would agree. I think....

So, if you were to alter the Westside template to suit your own needs, what would you use for the DE Squat? Just Speed squats?

I've been thinking for a while now to swap out Box Squats for some kind of jump, or just speed squats. Still pondering, though.

KPj


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:25 am 
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Quote:
KPj wrote:
Always appreciate your posts, Kenny. Thanks!

I think i'm with you on Box Squats. I'm in 2 minds, really. I think the effect depends on the lifter. I felt they really helped my squat at one point but, I think the main reason was that they taught me to sit back and use/train the stronger squatting muscle more, which I didn't really do, and they taught me to "explode" (after the pause).


KPj,

There is a place for Box Squat with a pause on your training. I use them and recommend them.

As you noted they develop power out of the hole. They are what Verhoshansky refers to as "Isometric Explosive".

See Fundamentals of Special Strength-Training in Sport
http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Spec ... B000FFIT26

However, you cannot develop power out of the hole to the same extent with Paused Box Squats as you can with Plyometric Box Squats.

That because Paused Box Squats do NOT train the stretch reflex.

The only way to train the stretch reflex is with plyometric movements.
"Squatting: To Be Explosive, Training Explosive" goes into Plyometric Box Squatting". http://www.liftinglarge.com/kennysquatt ... osive.aspx

A slight bounce/touch and go recoil is elicited off the box.

The main concern with this is the loading on the spine. Other plyometric squatting movement are recommended, if you dont' want to perform a Plyometric Box Squat.

Plyometric Squatting with Car Straps

Another method that now use is Plyometric Squats with Car Straps. Car Straps can be found at McMaster-Car.com Put "Lifting Straps" into "Search" at McMaster.

Car Straps are very cheap Spud Straps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibudPFY63AU

You pay about 1/5 of what you'd pay for Spud Straps.

The Car Straps I have will hold up to 1900 per strap. I paid about $20 for two, they are 4 ft long. Spud Straps will cost you about $80 for basically the same strap.

I attach the Car Straps to the top of a power rack (as shown in the video above) and place the bar inside the strap. The strap length is so that I can squat to paralell before the strap stop the downward movement.

I also attached band to the top of the power rack and to the bar. This deload the bar don the way down and reloads it on the way back up.

Plyometric Squatting with Moderately Heavy Loads.

I slowly lower the weight down in the squat. Once I am within a couple of inches from parallell, the bottom of the straps, I allow the descent speed to inxcrease.

I then rebound off the straps. The increased speed of descent also stretches the band. The combination provides an Assisted Overspeed Plyometric Squat.

Minimal loading occurs on your spine with method.

Quote:
I guess the Box Squats makes sense if you're a triple ply lifter. I have no experience with gear but from what i've read, the gear pops you out of the hole. In my mind the gear becomes an artificial stretch reflex so in that case, if you use it then it makes sense to use a movement that purposely dimishes th stretch reflex.


Yes.

The stretch reflex is best loaded by rebounding off hard or firm surfaces. So, that is what you are doing in "gear".

There is also some elasticity with most "gear" that helps sling shot you out of the hole.

Quote:
For people who just want a bigger raw squat, like myself, I would agree. I think...

Quote:
So, if you were to alter the Westside template to suit your own needs, what would you use for the DE Squat? Just Speed squats?


Speed Squats is a misnomer that stuck. Speed is developed with very light loads, approximately 10-30% of your max.

It really a "Power Squat". Power being developed with loads of approximately 40-60% of your max.

So, back to your question. Yes, for DE work a Speed/Power Squat is the best choice. There are a multitide way of performing them.

With that said, other exercises can be utlized to increase your speed/power.

Quote:
I've been thinking for a while now to swap out Box Squats for some kind of jump, or just speed squats. Still pondering, though.


Jumps Squat are a great movement for increasing speed/power.

You can perform "Jump Box Squats". Sit on the box, pause the weight and then explode into the air.

"Methods change, principles remain the same." Cosgrove

Understanding the principles of training allows you to write a program with a multitude of exercises that will "get you there".

You understand the concepts/principles.

The only limit then becomes your imagination.

Kenny Croxdale


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:23 pm 
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My issue now is how to apply all of this information to my day-to-day training. Currently I'm doing a straight-out-of-the-book 5/3/1 for my main lifts: Monday press, Tuesday DL, Thursday bench, Saturday squat. I consider those days my "heavy day" for those lifts. On Monday I do bench assistance work as "light bench" day, and on Thursday I do light press. On Tuesday I do light squats and on Saturday goodmornings as a DL surrogate, again light and high volume. This adds up to doing each lift twice a week, as opposed to every 9-10 days as I was doing before, training 3 days/week and doing both the heavy and assistance work for the same lift on the same day. I'm quite happy with the change in schedule, as I'm less sore, and making better progress. But like most of us, I'm never really satisfied.

I'm thinking maybe I should swap out some of the heavy lifts as well, at least for a few weeks at a time. Like doing heavy GMs instead of DLs for a few weeks. Or sumo or deficit or rack pulls. And then maybe a different auxiliary lift on light days, or conventional DLs done for speed and/or volume on the light days. This would make a mess of the nice neat organization of 5/3/1, but I don't always have to be THAT compulsive.

On light days I've been trying to do some variations like speed or power lifting. Thanks Kenny for making the distinction between speed and power clear. Also, I've started doing a full 4-second pause at the bottom on my light bench work, at least for some of the sets. For other sets I concentrate on a quick eccentric and a hard, explosive concentric.

I feel like I'm getting rambling and disorganized here, but I'm thinking as I go.

On squat, why not just pause in the hole? Wouldn't that have a similar effect to box squats, but without the spine-loading issues. So maybe I'd do heavy squats on heavy day, and then alternate sets of speed squats and pause squats on light day. Or, or, or...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:40 am 
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Quote:
Jungledoc wrote:
My issue now is how to apply all of this information to my day-to-day training. Currently I'm doing a straight-out-of-the-book 5/3/1 for my main lifts: Monday press, Tuesday DL, Thursday bench, Saturday squat. I consider those days my "heavy day" for those lifts. On Monday I do bench assistance work as "light bench" day, and on Thursday I do light press. On Tuesday I do light squats and on Saturday goodmornings as a DL surrogate, again light and high volume. This adds up to doing each lift twice a week, as opposed to every 9-10 days as I was doing before, training 3 days/week and doing both the heavy and assistance work for the same lift on the same day. I'm quite happy with the change in schedule, as I'm less sore, and making better progress. But like most of us, I'm never really satisfied.

I'm thinking maybe I should swap out some of the heavy lifts as well, at least for a few weeks at a time. Like doing heavy GMs instead of DLs for a few weeks. Or sumo or deficit or rack pulls. And then maybe a different auxiliary lift on light days, or conventional DLs done for speed and/or volume on the light days. This would make a mess of the nice neat organization of 5/3/1, but I don't always have to be THAT compulsive.

On light days I've been trying to do some variations like speed or power lifting.


Jungledoc,

I like minor changes, like you are doing...slowly adding things in to see how they work.

Quote:
Thanks Kenny for making the distinction between speed and power clear.


I simply relayed the information from Verkhoshansky.

Quote:
Also, I've started doing a full 4-second pause at the bottom on my light bench work, at least for some of the sets. For other sets I concentrate on a quick eccentric and a hard, explosive concentric.


Both are effective methods of increasing power.

Quote:
I feel like I'm getting rambling and disorganized here, but I'm thinking as I go.

On squat, why not just pause in the hole? Wouldn't that have a similar effect to box squats, but without the spine-loading issues. So maybe I'd do heavy squats on heavy day, and then alternate sets of speed squats and pause squats on light day. Or, or, or...


Ice Cream

Pausing your squat in the hole and pausing you squat sitting on a box are to some extent like ice cream.

Pausing in the hole is chocolate and pausing on the box is vanilla. They are still ice cream but have a different taste. That meaning your are going to get a little different training effect.

Which one works best?

It not a question of which one works the best but which one works the best for you?

Kenny Croxdale


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:15 am 
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This thread should be put in the vault when it's done. Lots of good discussion and information..

Thanks guys!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:10 am 
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Duly noted. Might even throw it over there now and leave it unlocked.
Tim


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:09 am 
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Kenny - thanks again for the info. I actually done "speed"(Power) squats on Fri night in place of Box Squats. Like Speed benching, I felt it 'called me out' on some form issues. Felt good. My only issue was picking the weight, kept popping the bar off my shoulders at the top, with it occasionally landing on the back of my neck. I'll get it sussed, though. Don't think the weight was too light, just don't think i was locking myself down enough. Consciously pulling the bar into my shoulders seemed to fix it - which is something i THOUGHT i done but, this is another reason why I like speed work, it seems to expose things like that.

Anyway, i'm rambling now - thanks for the info.

KPj


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:47 am 
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This is very useful information. And what's interesting about it is that for a lifter with different goal the variations make different sense. What you'll do for an improved powerlifting total is going to be different than an improved MMA sweep. For the latter you need to sit in "the hole" and then explode out, tensing up from a semi-relaxed position and expending energy suddenly to flip your opponent. Suddenly pausing in the hole makes a heck of a lot of sense...whereas for a competition squat from what I've seen you'll never spend that long down there before you come back up.

This gives me some ideas on how to train my MMA-athlete friend for improved sweeping power.


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