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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:57 am 
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http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/87/1/79

Hypocaloric diet causes fat/weight loss while including both refines and whole grains.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/131/5/1465

Hypocaloric diet causes fat/weight loss while including oats - blood pressure decreased, as well.

All I'm saying is - calories matter, beyond that I don't care what kind of diet people follow as long as there is adequate protein.

Also, I'm not sure if everyone knew - but protein causes insulin secretion as well, does that make it bad?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:59 am 
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What?! I never said anything like that. Why do you keep rephrasing what I say in such a way as to completely misrepresent my position? How about just a little intellectual honesty?

Those articles refute the ridiculous straw man arguments you created. It would be nice if they had anything to do with what I said.

Or is there maybe a genuine misunderstanding here? This statement makes me think that might be the case.

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You then try to change the entire debate by talking about a DISEASE and how it effects human metabolism? I didn't know we were discussing diabetics.


I was using type 1 diabetes as an example to help explain what insulin does, and what happens when it's not present. That's it.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but you are totally ranting and raving about stuff I never said.

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My whole argument here is that the only thing that matters for weight loss is a caloric deficit, nothing else.

My whole argument can be boiled down to "no it isn't".
Anything I talked about was in an effort to explain why that was, and how these factors work, as well as WHEN calories matter and WHERE the deficit must be.

Just to address your last sentence.... Actually, EATING causes insulin secretion. The amount of insulin secretion is the factor though. I thought I'd mention that since people might not know that.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:44 am 
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Against my better judgement, I'm going to get involved here. Calories obviously play an role. It has never been proven that there is any "Metabolic Advantage" by eating low carbs over and above the obvious differences in processing the different meganutrients. What is irrelevant is counting calories. Hormones control your appetite. It is clear that when people start eating low-carb based on real natural food, they consume less calories but feel full. They don't have to consciously cut calories. However, calories alone don't explain the body fat shift that they experience. Most people will also experience a body fat percentage reduction, where a person simply restricting calories will usually lose muscle along with the fat. Higher protein obviously plays a role in this. Saturated fats also play a role in reducing abdominal fat as long as the liver is not beyond repair.

Edit: I said carbs but meant calories.


Last edited by stuward on Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:14 am 
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stuward wrote:
Against my better judgement, I'm going to get involved here. Calories obviously play an role. It has never been proven that there is any "Metabolic Advantage" by eating low carbs over and above the obvious differences in processing the different meganutrients. What is irrelevant is counting calories. Hormones control your appetite. It is clear that when people start eating low-carb based on real natural food, they consume less calories but feel full. They don't have to consciously cut calories. However, calories alone don't explain the body fat shift that they experience. Most people will also experience a body fat percentage reduction, where a person simply restricting carbs will usually lose muscle along with the fat. Higher protein obviously plays a role in this. Saturated fats also play a role in reducing abdominal fat as long as the liver is not beyond repair.



This is pretty close to the point I was trying to make - I just feel like you, Ironman, as well as a lot of people on this forum constantly talk negatively about insulin/carbohydrates.

I'm not here to argue, I honestly don't know the fine details of nutrient usage - I'm just getting tired of hearing the one sided "FAT IS GOOD, CARBS ARE BAD" type of attitude on these forums. There is an obvious bias towards paleo/keto type eating habits here.

I'd also like to say your original statement about 'what works for nightfall' felt like somewhat of an 'attack'(can't think of a better word) on me, Ironman - as though I had some kind of superior genetics that allowed me to lose fat easily and as such my info should be disregarded.

Considering three years ago I was morbidly obese at 300+lbs at 5'9", not only would I say my genetics are not those of a lean person - but that I'm probably extremely insulin resistant.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:31 am 
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I'm sure both of you are more in agreement than disagreement, you're largely arguing semantics. I still believe Paleo is the best diet. Whether it needs to be ketogenic or not is debatable but I think there are situations where a ketogenic diet is helpful. Meat and veg are the most nutritious foods, so as long as your diet includes lots of both and restricts the more harmful foods, like msg, sugar, grains and seed oils, then eat what works for you.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:03 pm 
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NightFaLL wrote:
stuward wrote:
Against my better judgement, I'm going to get involved here. Calories obviously play an role. It has never been proven that there is any "Metabolic Advantage" by eating low carbs over and above the obvious differences in processing the different meganutrients. What is irrelevant is counting calories. Hormones control your appetite. It is clear that when people start eating low-carb based on real natural food, they consume less calories but feel full. They don't have to consciously cut calories. However, calories alone don't explain the body fat shift that they experience. Most people will also experience a body fat percentage reduction, where a person simply restricting carbs will usually lose muscle along with the fat. Higher protein obviously plays a role in this. Saturated fats also play a role in reducing abdominal fat as long as the liver is not beyond repair.



This is pretty close to the point I was trying to make - I just feel like you, Ironman, as well as a lot of people on this forum constantly talk negatively about insulin/carbohydrates.

I'm not here to argue, I honestly don't know the fine details of nutrient usage - I'm just getting tired of hearing the one sided "FAT IS GOOD, CARBS ARE BAD" type of attitude on these forums. There is an obvious bias towards paleo/keto type eating habits here.

I'd also like to say your original statement about 'what works for nightfall' felt like somewhat of an 'attack'(can't think of a better word) on me, Ironman - as though I had some kind of superior genetics that allowed me to lose fat easily and as such my info should be disregarded.

Considering three years ago I was morbidly obese at 300+lbs at 5'9", not only would I say my genetics are not those of a lean person - but that I'm probably extremely insulin resistant.


Well you said it works for you. I was just making the point that maybe it does work for you, but it doesn't work for a lot of people.

I think you are getting me mixed up with other people. I don't say anything is good or bad. Those are utterly useless subjective terms. I don't put anything so crudely, or in black and white terms. In all of nutrition carbs vary far more than any other factor when comparing different goals and different people.


All I'm doing is disagreeing with your assertion that calories (as in what is on the label of the food you eat), is all that matters.

I'm saying that manipulating hormones is a big factor. Let me put it this way. A person can be gaining weight even though they are not overeating. They would be in a deficit if they were not storing some of the food as fat, which in turn down regulates metabolism. It makes them expend very little energy. This is because they are expending all the energy they have but some of it is being leached away into fat stores.
So then the person switches to low carb which suppresses the hormone storing the fat and stimulates another that mobilizes it. So then the person doesn't just go back to the original metabolic rate, it actually goes a little higher, there is more energy to burn because more is available for use due to fat mobilization.

So there is an energy balance, but what is on the food label may be misleading. It also doesn't account for the hormones causing you to store or use the energy. There is also the factor of how long it takes to digest something. Anything you don't use will get stored as fat. So the fast vs slow can be a factor.

That's just one example though. I just object to people acting like your body is a box and you can just put things in and take them out and it's all simple and everyone is the same.

So hopefully that is understandable without be too simplistic.


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