ExRx.net

Exercise Prescription on the Net
It is currently Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:52 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:28 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4284
Oscar_Actuary wrote:
man, if you had only signed up as Shaggy.


love. it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:03 am 
Offline
former lurker

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:30 pm
Posts: 2
lol for the Shaggy joke, i don't actually follow Scooby's advice, just the nutritional a bit. I like training more weighs than Scooby suggests and do the reps faster. However I do think the time he takes to suggest home workouts is extremely respectable (although i go to a gym close to my house). His goals however are home workouts which they are some good advice however i wouldn't follow him to everything he says.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:48 am 
Online
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:44 pm
Posts: 6323
Location: Halifax, NS
I don't know why you guys are hating on this. It may be different than the way that works for you but that doesn't make it wrong. There are lots of valid methods to achieve the same ends. If you find something that is clearly wrong, like this: "So remember that to gain muscle requires TWO things: ... You have to eat 6 small meals each with a good dose of protein." then say so. (It is possible to build muscle and lose fat on as few as 1 meal/day). I do agree with this: "you don't need to get fat to get strong".

_________________
Stu Ward
_________________
Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:09 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4284
i stand by my hating (although I'm pretty sure I said something along the lines of "if his advice is working for you then keep at it").

his physique is weird, he lifts too slow and I think home made cable machines are a terrible idea.

Having said that, he's accomplished more than I ever will most likely


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:45 am 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:20 am
Posts: 778
stuward wrote:
I don't know why you guys are hating on this. It may be different than the way that works for you but that doesn't make it wrong. There are lots of valid methods to achieve the same ends. If you find something that is clearly wrong, like this: "So remember that to gain muscle requires TWO things: ... You have to eat 6 small meals each with a good dose of protein." then say so. (It is possible to build muscle and lose fat on as few as 1 meal/day). I do agree with this: "you don't need to get fat to get strong".



Nothing against you stuward, but this is probably one of my biggest pet peeves.

The physiology of the human body is not so different to require millions of different ways of training and eating. I think his whole setup will cause more harm than good.

Saying things like "Spit it out if it tastes good" is about a half a step away from saying "If you accidentally eat something that tastes good, force yourself to vomit it back up".

Eating disorders are a big problem in the fitness world, just one that very few people mention. (Give it 5 years and the APA will consider carbphobia an eating disorder - as I think they should)

His training is also fairly pointless - if he's aiming at beginners, why show them how to do pec flys among the other isolations he teaches? (Without any pre-hab type work, which is probably what 99.9% of beginners need, since they're typically poor postured).


What I'm saying is this: His training will work with beginners because they're beginners - everything works for beginners. It won't work for anyone else and those that it does work for would find infinitely more progress/health doing other things.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:53 pm 
Online
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:44 pm
Posts: 6323
Location: Halifax, NS
NightFaLL wrote:
stuward wrote:
I don't know why you guys are hating on this. It may be different than the way that works for you but that doesn't make it wrong. There are lots of valid methods to achieve the same ends. If you find something that is clearly wrong, like this: "So remember that to gain muscle requires TWO things: ... You have to eat 6 small meals each with a good dose of protein." then say so. (It is possible to build muscle and lose fat on as few as 1 meal/day). I do agree with this: "you don't need to get fat to get strong".



Nothing against you stuward, but this is probably one of my biggest pet peeves.

The physiology of the human body is not so different to require millions of different ways of training and eating. I think his whole setup will cause more harm than good.

Saying things like "Spit it out if it tastes good" is about a half a step away from saying "If you accidentally eat something that tastes good, force yourself to vomit it back up".

Eating disorders are a big problem in the fitness world, just one that very few people mention. (Give it 5 years and the APA will consider carbphobia an eating disorder - as I think they should)

His training is also fairly pointless - if he's aiming at beginners, why show them how to do pec flys among the other isolations he teaches? (Without any pre-hab type work, which is probably what 99.9% of beginners need, since they're typically poor postured).


What I'm saying is this: His training will work with beginners because they're beginners - everything works for beginners. It won't work for anyone else and those that it does work for would find infinitely more progress/health doing other things.


I think we're in violant agreement on most of the points you bring up. He does have a habit of saying "THIS IS THE WAY" as if it's the only way. In fact there is an art to building muscle, and then there are basic principles that work in most cases. He seems to confuse the idea that what worked best for him may be part of the art and not basic principles, for example, the number of meals a day is part of the art.

_________________
Stu Ward
_________________
Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:29 am 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 11:55 pm
Posts: 7
I shall re-state my opinions of him.

I actually respect him. I really really do. The guy does these things for free, because he wants to educate people on being fit. Few years ago when I started lifting weights (and he started opening his website) I actually turned to his website for advice.

People think he is hardcore enthusiast in regards to home gym equipment (as in, people see his site and tend to think that Scooby believes home gym is the only way to train), but that is really just him targetting those with little money and the fact that home gym is much more convenient and less expensive in the long run than a real fitness gym.

That being said, as I gain more knowledge and experience I find myself disagreeing with many of what he preaches on his website. I also respectfully disagree with his extreme anti stance on spending $$ for bodybuilding programs. There is nothing wrong with people who want to invest in a decent program if they have the cash to spend it. (of course, those people need to be smart in selecting the programs they would want to buy) Thats why people hire personal trainers, they know there are lots of free info on lifing weights but they hope they can get the core knowledge and proven results.

EDIT: In response to MESS, I am pretty sure that Scooby is against stretching as he claims that from his experience people are more likely to get injured from stretching than lifting weights, and that there is no scientific evidence that stretching reduces chances of injury. But yes, he does warm up (obviously any one should warm up before they lift weights)

Oh and another thing: This guy loves DOMS so much that it misleads his "fans" and trainees to think that if you dont feel DOMS then something isnt working right.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:53 am 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 11:55 pm
Posts: 7
RobertB wrote:
I can't accept the whole area of people who say you don't need to bulk and cut, I've heard it a few times but not enough.


This is just my opinion and what works for me personally. The trick to gaining muscle is simply lift weights with intensity high enough that your muscle has to grow + eat enough food to support said muscle growth. The trick to losing fat is simply not consume more calories and carbs than you need to consume. I believe there is an area in dieting where you should be able to eat enough food that your body grows but not so much that your body gains fat.

But then again I am not competing and I dont want to compete so what do I know....

What I do know is that I've heard and read from people who have gained fat when they bulk (which means they got fat cells...and fat cells never ever go away permanently), yet when they cut back down not only do they lose pounds of fat, they lose few pounds of muscle as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:05 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:51 pm
Posts: 1802
Location: Mass, USA
kriegpaolo_23 wrote:
(which means they got fat cells...and fat cells never ever go away permanently),


This only happens in extreme cases of obesity I believe, NOT in a dude gaining 30-40lbs of fat to go from 180 to 260 in the first 3 years or lifting.

Also, if his back wasn't lagging as much as it is, I would never believe Scooby was a lifetime natty.

I believe it was Lyle that said a 50/50 rate was realistic for a natty past newb gains. And I can't really disagree, based on personal experience.

Outside of a few genetic freaks, you are not going to be filling out a XL shirt staying 10-12% the whole time anytime soon.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:58 pm 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 11:55 pm
Posts: 7
nygmen wrote:
kriegpaolo_23 wrote:
(which means they got fat cells...and fat cells never ever go away permanently),


This only happens in extreme cases of obesity I believe, NOT in a dude gaining 30-40lbs of fat to go from 180 to 260 in the first 3 years or lifting.

Also, if his back wasn't lagging as much as it is, I would never believe Scooby was a lifetime natty.

I believe it was Lyle that said a 50/50 rate was realistic for a natty past newb gains. And I can't really disagree, based on personal experience.

Outside of a few genetic freaks, you are not going to be filling out a XL shirt staying 10-12% the whole time anytime soon.


From what I know, when you gain lots of fat obviously there are fat cells that go with it. However, fat cells WILL shrink when you lose weight again. However the existence of these fat cells in your body just means it is easier to gain fat again. And these fat cells will never go away permanently once you get them. This is one of the reasons why fat people find it easier to gain back the weight they just lost a couple of weeks ago.

May I ask what you mean by 50/50 rate?

Well I am an Asian and I wear the XL shirt size here lol, with my body fat staying in 7-8% area....shirt sizes in Asia-Oceania may be different than Europe or USA though


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:38 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:51 pm
Posts: 1802
Location: Mass, USA
kriegpaolo_23 wrote:

From what I know, when you gain lots of fat obviously there are fat cells that go with it. However, fat cells WILL shrink when you lose weight again. However the existence of these fat cells in your body just means it is easier to gain fat again. And these fat cells will never go away permanently once you get them. This is one of the reasons why fat people find it easier to gain back the weight they just lost a couple of weeks ago.


You don't create new fat cells past childhood.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18454136

People get fat again because the don't make a true lifestyle change, and have $h1t self discipline in the first place. Having or not having the cells doesn't change how full they are. People's awful portion control and lack of movement does.



Quote:
May I ask what you mean by 50/50 rate?


50% fat gained and 50% muscle.


Quote:
Well I am an Asian and I wear the XL shirt size here lol, with my body fat staying in 7-8% area....shirt sizes in Asia-Oceania may be different than Europe or USA though


While I'm sure you are way under estimating your bodyfat, mainly because 7-8% is insane lean and near impossible for a normal person to maintain for any per longed period of time, I'm also sure the shirt sizes are different lol.

At 6 foot tall, I had to hit a soft 260 (back down to a leaner 240) to blow out all XL's irrelevant of manufacturer.

So yeah, the sizes are different.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:51 pm 
Online
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:44 pm
Posts: 6323
Location: Halifax, NS
I have a couple of quick points.

In order to gain muscle vs fat, nutrient density is important. You need adequate protein, fat and carbs and no serious deficiencies in micronutrients. People eating tons of craps will gain more fat than someone eating quality food.

kriegpaolo_23 doesn't give his age but it's easier for a young person to maintain a single digit BF% than an older person. 7-8% is relatively easy for an 18 year old, but almost impossible for the average 50 year old.

_________________
Stu Ward
_________________
Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:28 am 
Offline
n00b
n00b

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 11:55 pm
Posts: 7
In regards to fat cells, thats what I heard from a doctor...that its possible to gain fat cells and those cells will never ever permanently disappear...oh well. I wont act like I know everything about science.

And yep. I am a young person, and I am aware that shirt sizes can be different...lol. Different shirt manufacturers also have different sizing measurements even in Asia-Oceania...I think. In any case my ideal body type is to have a fairly muscular yet lean ripped look as opposed to being a 250 pounder bulky guy. If I actually get that big I would have some problems finding a fitting shirt here actually, lol.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:47 am 
Offline
Necromancer
Necromancer
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 11:00 am
Posts: 134
Location: Canada
CkDead wrote:
What's everyone's opinion on the advice given by Scooby Werkstatt?
I enjoy his videos, he makes good points about a lot of movements. Can't comment on diet as I'm pretty ignorant about that, though his seems to be working out for him.
Rik-Blades wrote:
I dont see any deadlifting or squats in his routines

He does some deadlifting his his hamstring vids here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Noa32Ize-M0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO2-hx6m1hw albeit the stiff-legged variety which I guess won't make the powerlifting community hot for him.
Squats: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_2JPn6gbKM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D7Hv4L1F60
Rik-Blades wrote:
surely he needs to stretch?
He probably does, I don't remember if he's addressed it in videos, I think it's come up now and then. Oh here we go, a hamstring stretching video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpJab7LcbxE
Rik-Blades wrote:
Experienced lifters wont listen to this
Oh? Why not?
Rik-Blades wrote:
beginners are going to waste time on loads of isolation work.
Scooby does advocate compound movements, he has vids for presses and pull ups. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_vw0P8EVwQ A lot of beginners spend time on isos anyway, scooby's not at fault for giving input on how he thinks they should be done. He doesn't promote only isos, so I don't see the problem.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:14 pm 
Offline
Associate Member
Associate Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 1:47 pm
Posts: 458
Location: Nottinghamshire U.K.
tyciol wrote:
Rik-Blades wrote:
I dont see any deadlifting or squats in his routines

He does some deadlifting his his hamstring vids here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Noa32Ize-M0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO2-hx6m1hw albeit the stiff-legged variety which I guess won't make the powerlifting community hot for him.
Squats: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_2JPn6gbKM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D7Hv4L1F60


A quote from scoobys site:

"4/6/2011 Reworked all my workout plans, the beginning workout plan, the intermediate workout plan, the advanced workout plan, and I also added an advanced intermediate workout plan."

You will note the date, then you will also note the original date from this thread (23rd September 2010) a full NINE months. Scoody has added Deadlifts to his Advanced routines only scince then.

As for the squat videos, all he does is bang on about why you shouldn't do squats. Oh....and if you seriously think you are going to build swole legs from "Skateboard Squats"......go grab a skateboard kid.

tyciol wrote:
Rik-Blades wrote:
surely he needs to stretch?
He probably does, I don't remember if he's addressed it in videos, I think it's come up now and then. Oh here we go, a hamstring stretching video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpJab7LcbxE


Well, i'm glad you found that. A shiny example of someone stretching something and no real idea why he's doing it. Back pain....maybe he should do less crunches, or build up his glutes, or strengthen his lower back with some squats. Some real deadlifts might even give him some hammies to stretch.

tyciol wrote:
Rik-Blades wrote:
Experienced lifters wont listen to this
Oh? Why not?


See my above replies.

tyciol wrote:
Rik-Blades wrote:
beginners are going to waste time on loads of isolation work.
Scooby does advocate compound movements, he has vids for presses and pull ups. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_vw0P8EVwQ A lot of beginners spend time on isos anyway, scooby's not at fault for giving input on how he thinks they should be done. He doesn't promote only isos, so I don't see the problem.


Yes, we know you don't see the problem, like you dont see the problem in bumping old threads when clearly the other members here would prefer you to start a new one.

Scooby's hardly promoting the benefits of getting a proper strength foundation though...is he! I dont think Starr or Ripptoe have much to worry about.

_________________
--
...I don't have a signature...


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group