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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:28 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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mdog wrote:
thanks ,

I will continue to chime in with tidbits that I feel contribute to fitness or health to board members. BTW has anyone heard of those powerbands!!they are amazing...lol, jk

Mdog


forget powerbands, I tell you, the next big thing's this new internet that everyone's talking about.

Take it from me, the internet's going to be huge


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:32 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk

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Thanks TimD


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:36 pm 
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Well, while I've been traveling I've been called childish, and we've been treated to a blast of scientistic double-talk! Sorry to be away. I was on lovely airplanes for about 36 hours with my knees drawn up to my chin while eating tasteless mush.

Mentioning the mid-brain and cranial nerves makes it sound like you've been doing some study for your reply. It still doesn't establish any way that your made-up nerve energy can get to the core. Studies schmudies. There have been so many double-blind studies through the years that have "proved" something or other that I'm weary of it, and your assertion that such studies exist doesn't interest me.

Turning on the water in my k-word makes the neighbor's bathroom light go on. Yeah, maybe it's possible, but I doubt it, and there is not enough time in my life to pursue the question.

What is a "neurodentist"? Did you make that up along with "nerve energy"? I'm not one. I'm just a country doctor who passed anatomy and neurology in medical school. A long time ago. Maybe they have discovered a neurologic connection between the TMJ and the core muscles that we didn't know about back then. Also, I can't imagine how the TMJ compresses any nerve. What nerve? Where is it located in relation to the TMJ? How does the TMJ compress it?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:27 pm 
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And, yeah. I looked at the dentist's website that you sited. This is not a study, but his advertisement for a service from which he hopes to earn income (nothing wrong with that per se, but it's not a study). He links a study, and if that is the one you are referring to, sorry. It doesn't say as much as you hope it says. It says that jaw position affects the outcome of a computerized test of foot posture. It provides no documentation of the reliability of significance of the test. Just that when the subjects' jaws were open a little bit, they did better on that test. It proves nothing about nerve compression, mid-brain activity, core stability or the national debt.

I echo Oscar's question: Why are you so deeply vested in this issue? Why do you care so much about mouth guards that you would call someone "childish" for disagreeing with you? Why would you assume that someone with considerable knowledge of this and related matters is somehow closed-minded because he recognized that the physiological connection that you posit is nonsense?

If you want to use a mouth guard, by all means do so. If you think it helps you in some way, feel free to say so. But if you make up a silly mechanism for how it is doing it, expect someone to be skeptical.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:58 pm 
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The fact that you think Neuro-dentistry is fiction and not a discipline tells me all I need to know as to how informed you are on this topic. I understand now why you dont grasp the science behind it or dont want to. You clearly come across as some one that feels if they havent heard of it or come across it in the past it must be inaccurate or a scam. Skepticism is healthy, I am the same way, unless it is coupled with tunnel vision and blinders. I work with Orthos and Neuros on a daily basis in a rehab setting, the science is logical and viable to them. Being a healthcare provider it is in our and patients interest to stay ahead of the curve when it comes to healthcare and fitness so that we can provide an efficient and safe service.

MDog


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:30 pm 
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I'm having trouble finding anything on the disciple of Neuro-dentistry, that makes me suspicious.
Mind you I'm not denying its possible existence -- I'm aware of the complexity of the neurological system. (Synesthesia comes to mind)
I'm just not finding anything detailing the discipline and its theories.


Last edited by Travis on Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:42 pm 
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its actually neuromuscular dentisty. Should be very easy to Google.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:54 am 
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I don't think you have answered a single question I asked. You say that I'm closed minded, but all I'm doing is asking about the things you bring up. But you don't answer. I just asked what nerve is being compressed by the TMJ, and how the TMJ is compressing it. When I studied the cranial nerves, none of them was located in a position in which they could be compressed by that joint.

And, no I haven't heard of neurodentistry. That makes me, what?, super-stupid? OK.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:03 am 
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mdog wrote:
The fact that you think Neuro-dentistry is fiction and not a discipline tells me all I need to know as to how informed you are on this topic. I understand now why you dont grasp the science behind it or dont want to. You clearly come across as some one that feels if they havent heard of it or come across it in the past it must be inaccurate or a scam. Skepticism is healthy, I am the same way, unless it is coupled with tunnel vision and blinders. I work with Orthos and Neuros on a daily basis in a rehab setting, the science is logical and viable to them. Being a healthcare provider it is in our and patients interest to stay ahead of the curve when it comes to healthcare and fitness so that we can provide an efficient and safe service.

MDog


It looks like you lead off with a variation on the ad hominem. He disagrees, therefore you can dismiss his argument. Then you go on to lay out his position for him.

Something like neuro-dentistry has the sound of some new age quackery. That's what I would expect to find if I looked into it. So let me look it up.......

Quote:
Neuromuscular dentistry considers the harmony and balance of the TMJoint, Muscles of the head and neck, posture and teeth as well as the central nervous system. It is a treatment modality of dentistry that objectively focuses on correcting misalignment of the jaw at the temporomandibular joint (TMJ).


Yep, that sounds like bull$h1t....."harmony and balance" are especially telling. It couldn't be more obvious unless it said something about energy. Then look at the symptoms.

Quote:
Symptoms of temporomandibular joint disorder (TMD) are claimed to include:

Headaches / migraines
Facial pain
Back, neck and shoulder pain
Tinnitus (Ringing in the ears)
Vertigo (dizziness)
Trigeminal neuralgia (Tic douloureux), a neuropathic pain disorder unrelated to TMD
Bell's Palsy, a nerve disorder unrelated to TMD
Sensitive and sore teeth
Jaw pain
Limited jaw movement or locking jaw
Numbness in the fingers and arms (related to the cervical musculature and nerves, not to TMD)
Worn or cracked teeth
Clicking or popping in the jaw joints
Jaw Joint pain
Clenching/bruxing
Tender sensitive teeth
A limited opening or inability to open the mouth comfortably
Deviation of the jaw to one side
The jaw locking open or closed
Postural problems (forward head posture)
Pain in the joint(s) or face when opening or closing the mouth, yawning, or chewing
Pain in the muscles surrounding the temporomandibular joints
Pain in the occipital (back), temporal (side), frontal (front), or infra-orbital (below the eyes) portions of the head
Pain behind the eyes
Swelling on the side of the face and/or mouth
A bite that feels uncomfortable, "off," or as if it is continually changing
Older Bells palsy


So in other words, pretty much anyone could be diagnosed with that. It's like some cure-all snake oil. It's like a chiropractor for your mouth. The wikipedia page for it has no citations......

It looks like they used to have a different explanation for how it works, which was debunked.
http://www.dentalwatch.org/questionable/ua.html
(useful references at the bottom of the page)

So it appears to be exactly what it sounds like.....


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:16 am 
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n00b
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Ironman wrote:
mdog wrote:
The fact that you think Neuro-dentistry is fiction and not a discipline tells me all I need to know as to how informed you are on this topic. I understand now why you dont grasp the science behind it or dont want to. You clearly come across as some one that feels if they havent heard of it or come across it in the past it must be inaccurate or a scam. Skepticism is healthy, I am the same way, unless it is coupled with tunnel vision and blinders. I work with Orthos and Neuros on a daily basis in a rehab setting, the science is logical and viable to them. Being a healthcare provider it is in our and patients interest to stay ahead of the curve when it comes to healthcare and fitness so that we can provide an efficient and safe service.

MDog


It looks like you lead off with a variation on the ad hominem. He disagrees, therefore you can dismiss his argument. Then you go on to lay out his position for him.

Something like neuro-dentistry has the sound of some new age quackery. That's what I would expect to find if I looked into it. So let me look it up.......

Quote:
Neuromuscular dentistry considers the harmony and balance of the TMJoint, Muscles of the head and neck, posture and teeth as well as the central nervous system. It is a treatment modality of dentistry that objectively focuses on correcting misalignment of the jaw at the temporomandibular joint (TMJ).


Yep, that sounds like bull$h1t....."harmony and balance" are especially telling. It couldn't be more obvious unless it said something about energy. Then look at the symptoms.

Quote:
Symptoms of temporomandibular joint disorder (TMD) are claimed to include:



Headaches / migraines
Facial pain
Back, neck and shoulder pain
Tinnitus (Ringing in the ears)
Vertigo (dizziness)
Trigeminal neuralgia (Tic douloureux), a neuropathic pain disorder unrelated to TMD
Bell's Palsy, a nerve disorder unrelated to TMD
Sensitive and sore teeth
Jaw pain
Limited jaw movement or locking jaw
Numbness in the fingers and arms (related to the cervical musculature and nerves, not to TMD)
Worn or cracked teeth
Clicking or popping in the jaw joints
Jaw Joint pain
Clenching/bruxing
Tender sensitive teeth
A limited opening or inability to open the mouth comfortably
Deviation of the jaw to one side
The jaw locking open or closed
Postural problems (forward head posture)
Pain in the joint(s) or face when opening or closing the mouth, yawning, or chewing
Pain in the muscles surrounding the temporomandibular joints
Pain in the occipital (back), temporal (side), frontal (front), or infra-orbital (below the eyes) portions of the head
Pain behind the eyes
Swelling on the side of the face and/or mouth
A bite that feels uncomfortable, "off," or as if it is continually changing
Older Bells palsy


So in other words, pretty much anyone could be diagnosed with that. It's like some cure-all snake oil. It's like a chiropractor for your mouth. The wikipedia page for it has no citations......

It looks like they used to have a different explanation for how it works, which was debunked.
http://www.dentalwatch.org/questionable/ua.html
(useful references at the bottom of the page)

So it appears to be exactly what it sounds like.....


To find an article that is pro or con is easy for almost any topic. You are using a lack of refrence on Wikipedia as an arguement, thats desperate. Its fine that you think its bull$h1t, I dont really care, for the dr. go back and read the earlier posts your "questions" were answered earlier. If you havent tried it, it is very easy to knock it, it seems counter intuitive but it does work and I'll leave it at that.

If you are questioning whether those symptoms can arise from TMJ disorder, your right they can. Mal-occlusions can cause muscular imbalances. I feel like I'm having a conversation with very stubborn and over defensive people. I have a positoin on this topic and I will continue to state it and present it from my own personal experience.

The company that is promoting that product has a crappy product. Not all mouthguards claim to do what they say can. I'm not here to promote any brand of mouthguard, especially a brand that doesnt do what its suppose to do.

Mdog


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:56 am 
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If it works for YOU, then fine. Still doesn't add any verication to this pseudo-exercise product.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:05 am 
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what do you do in your work with Orthos?


ps. We are helping you keep this topic at the top.
so, isnt that the best thing


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Gross oversimplification but true: This discussion is granting legitimacy to the topic under discussion via the mechanism of Google spam.

Google cannot tell what we are saying about it, but it can tell that the thread is full of links, very specific words, and participation by multiple members. That looks like legitimate content.

If the main words are googled, this thread will sooner or later appear. The spammers can point to the discussion and claim "reasonable people may disagree -- but lots of people are talking about it".

Bad publicity is better than no publicity.

Humbly suggest not to feed the troll on this one.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:33 am 
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mdog wrote:

To find an article that is pro or con is easy for almost any topic. You are using a lack of refrence on Wikipedia as an arguement, thats desperate. Its fine that you think its bull$h1t, I dont really care, for the dr. go back and read the earlier posts your "questions" were answered earlier. If you havent tried it, it is very easy to knock it, it seems counter intuitive but it does work and I'll leave it at that.

If you are questioning whether those symptoms can arise from TMJ disorder, your right they can. Mal-occlusions can cause muscular imbalances. I feel like I'm having a conversation with very stubborn and over defensive people. I have a positoin on this topic and I will continue to state it and present it from my own personal experience.

The company that is promoting that product has a crappy product. Not all mouthguards claim to do what they say can. I'm not here to promote any brand of mouthguard, especially a brand that doesnt do what its suppose to do.

Mdog


You seem to be singling out an article and a wikipedia entry when there is more that you are ignoring. Your dismissal of the article by Dr. Barrett is a total non-sequitur. It's "Easy" to find in your subjective opinion, therefore it's not valid. That is a truly ridiculous argument. Then adding on the baseless assertion that this was "desperate", is ad hominem, a baseless assertion, and poisoning the well. There is also no way you could have such knowledge with the available data.

Quote:
I feel like I'm having a conversation with very stubborn and over defensive people.

That's because your emotions are clouding the issue. We are neither of those things. We are skeptics. I'm a rationalist, so I have no beliefs other than what can be learned from empirical evidence or logical deductive reasoning. To do otherwise is an epistemically tenuous position.

Quote:
I have a positoin on this topic and I will continue to state it and present it from my own personal experience.

anecdotes are not evidence, and entirely meaningless in this context.

Quote:
If you havent tried it, it is very easy to knock it

That's a straw man. That did not even enter into my reason as evidenced in my above post.

Quote:
but it does work and I'll leave it at that

How do you know that? Because you tried it out and it "felt" like it worked? Placebos are a powerful thing....

Quote:
Mal-occlusions can cause muscular imbalances

How do you know that? By magic?

Whenever someone believes in some kind of bull$h1t, they react in that same way when challenged. Conspiracy theorists, homeopathy advocates, you name it, they all spew out emotional fallacy filled excuses for arguments, that are completely without any substance or merit.



I think this picture really sums it up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:42 pm 
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That last post shows the level of maturity that I am dealing with. This is nothing more than a herd mentality, one lemming following the other to solidify your need to be accepted and show camarderie. Malocclusions do cause musclar imbalances, look it up, first look up what a mal-occlusion are. I did not post after one person said that I was spamming and he soiled his pants that google may pick it up. I have even DM some other people on this forum so I wouldn't come across as someone that is spamming. You guys are acting like a bunch of high school kids, to go and find a picture like that, really, its pathetic.

I bet most of you are all single and for the most part live in your parents basement playing video games. Immature idiots.


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