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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:44 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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Berkham has to differentiate himself so he does it a little differently. I know Brad Pilon refers to WD several times in "EAT STOP EAT" in glowing terms. I don't know what claims are ridiculous. You would have to ask Martin what he's talking about.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:26 pm 
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Guess I might as well read and judge for myself :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:30 pm 
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mark74 wrote:
Guess I might as well read and judge for myself :wink:


or better still, you could try the diet and let us all know how you get on

i think the 16/8 leangains approach would be more sustainable. There was an article on t-nation (where else?) the other day about the difference between people's metabolisms, fasting etc., and one of the things I thought was interesting was that the author said that the easier you find it to go without food for long periods of time, the more efficient your body is at using body fat for energy. Not sure how true that is but it's an interesting concept.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:33 pm 
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For people who are not already close to there target leanness, Leangains typicaly causes cortisol buildup and eventually adrenal fatique. Fasting is not a beginner technique.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:50 am 
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stuward wrote:
For people who are not already close to there target leanness, Leangains typicaly causes cortisol buildup and eventually adrenal fatique. Fasting is not a beginner technique.


that's quite interesting, I didn't know that. Now I think about it, all the before/after shots of folk on the leangains site tend to all have been pretty lean before they started.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:43 am 
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I post from time to time over on Robb Wolfe's site. A lot of the discussion is around cortisol, people burning themselves out with crossfit and IF, trying to achieve something that's not sustainable. First people need to master the basics. A dietary and activity routine they can do for the rest of their life. Then they can tweak it for specific short term goals if they want.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:38 am 
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stuward wrote:
Leangains typicaly causes cortisol buildup and eventually adrenal fatique.


Links?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:49 am 
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mark74 wrote:
stuward wrote:
Leangains typicaly causes cortisol buildup and eventually adrenal fatique.


Links?


As mentioned earlier, I'm refering to people's experiences as posted here:

http://robbwolf.com/forum/

There is an article here explaining it: http://chriskresser.com/blog/intermitte ... ood-sugar/

Alan Aragon did a more detailed analysis here, slightly dated now: http://www.alanaragon.com/an-objective- ... sting.html

First and formost, you need to get your health under control. If your blood pressure, blood sugar, lipid profile, etc are not all under control, do that first. By taking appropriate steps in this direction, excess body weight will usually correct itself. Obiesity is a symptom that your body is messed up. It's your body's defence system of preventing further damage.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:24 am 
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I was expecting something more scientific TBH. While stress is real enough, from googling 'adrenal fatigue' it appears the whole concept is not accepted by medicine. Most sites that deal with it are not even worth linking to so I was hoping you could provide more sound references.

If people on CrossFit try IF and dig themselves a grave, I'll be putting my money on IF not being the culprit. Some people almost got killed by exertion caused by CrossFit. (Rip got away with merely a chronic tendinitis)

The Leangains site offers this information about cortisol:

Quote:
Cortisol is a steroid hormone that maintains blood pressure, regulates the immune system and helps break down proteins, glucose and lipids. (...) Chronically elevated levels of cortisol, resulting from psychological and/or physiological stress, is another thing and unquestionably bad for your health; it increases protein breakdown, appetite and may lead to depression.

Short-term fasting has no effect on average cortisol levels and this is an area that has been extensively studied in the context of Ramadan fasting. Cortisol typically follows a diurnal variation, which means that its levels peak in the morning at around 8 a.m. and decline in the evenings. What changes during Ramadan is simply the cortisol rhythm, average levels across 24 hours remain unchanged.

In one Ramadan study on rugby players, subjects lost fat and retained muscle very well. And they did despite training in a dehydrated state, without pre-workout or post-workout protein intake, and with a lower protein intake overall nonetheless.

(...) In conclusion, the belief that fasting increases cortisol, which then might cause all kinds of mischief such as muscle loss, has no scientific basis whatsoever.

Origin

Prolonged fasting or severe calorie restriction causes elevated baseline levels of cortisol. This occurs in conjunction with depletion of liver glycogen, as cortisol speeds up DNG, which is necessary to maintain blood sugar in absence of dietary carbs, protein, or stored glycogen. Again, it seems someone looked at what happens during starvation and took that to mean that short-term fasting is bad.


Full article here, links to the ramadan studies.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:35 am 
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Finding actual research backing up anything worthwhile is very hard. Research tends to trail the internet gurus by 5-10 years. Thaat means stuff like IF, which has it's place, gets to be abused for a long time before it gets properly tested. That's where common sense comes into it. If Chris Kresser has noticed that IF make people's blood sugar control worse, then I would recommend that IF NOT be used as means of controlling obesity. There are safer ways out there.

Martin Berkhan is selling books. You can't use his site as confirmation that what is in his book is valid or not, or that it's appropriate in a specific case. Don't get me wrong though. I think Leangains works, there is a lot of good information there, but it's not appropriate in all cases.

Leangains site has a link to this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21475137
I read that as evidence of the validity of the Warrior Diet concept. "...relatively simple diet approach enhances satiety, leads to better anthropometric outcomes, and achieves improved metabolic response, compared to a more conventional dietary approach."

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:16 pm 
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stuward wrote:
Finding actual research backing up anything worthwhile is very hard. Research tends to trail the internet gurus by 5-10 years.


True, but the core of IF isn't really anything new.

stuward wrote:
If Chris Kresser has noticed that IF make people's blood sugar control worse, then I would recommend that IF NOT be used as means of controlling obesity.


Blood sugar control is one thing, adrenal fatigue OTOH? I can't even find a valid definition of the condition. Symptoms are all over the place, so vague you could pick a random person out of the crowd and diagnose him with "adrenal fatigue" which is great if you're selling remedies, not much if you're trying to make head or tail of it.

BTW I *am* a beginner, have been IF-fing for at least 10 months and I don't have 98% of the symptoms that are attributed to adrenal fatigue.

stuward wrote:
Martin Berkhan is selling books.


Is he ?

Ok, ok nitpicking :razz:

stuward wrote:
You can't use his site as confirmation that what is in his book is valid or not, or that it's appropriate in a specific case.


The principle is sound, although if IF raised cortisol levels to significant levels on a chronic basis, why that would be true only for LeanGains and not the others?

stuward wrote:
Leangains site has a link to this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21475137 (...) I read that as evidence of the validity of the Warrior Diet concept.


We discussed that study a bit some months ago IIRC, you said something like that it would confirm the effectiveness of nutrient timing as an eating strategy i.e. putting all carbs for the day in the same meal is better than spreading all over the day.

But that would back up whatever IF regime that relies on a limited feeding time window, not just WD. The main difference in WD AFAICT is that it allows for snacks which from an outsider's perspective looks like the grazing strategy left using the front door and came right back in from the window.

BTW the guy himself says it works better for people starting from about 12% BF (IIRC), but he did have fat clients too, so IMO the problem with Berkhan is not that he's selling books, rather that he isn't, if you catch my drift.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:26 pm 
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The "snacks" that WD allows are really mini meals, based on protein and fats, not enough to raise insulin or to actually meet the energy needs by themself. This forces fat burning, just as IF would do but it's less stressful. As for "adrenal fatique" call it whatever you want. I think of it as "burnout". If you're under constant stress, IF will add not improve the situation. I'm not saying it does that for everyone, just that it's a potential issue. Crossfit doesn't burn out averyone either, just enough that it's noticable.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:59 am 
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Berkhan has a diet protocol where you are allowed a couple of pre-training meals for folk that can't train til late in the day. You keep them small and carb-less. Sounds pretty much like the Warrior Diet to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:21 am 
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stuward wrote:
not enough to raise insulin or to actually meet the energy needs by themself. This forces fat burning, just as IF would do but it's less stressful.


I'm not sure about that, insulin index data shows that meat and fish are in the same league as rice as far as insulin is concerned. Dr Eades has even posted a link some days ago that shows how the insulin response to carbs (mashed potatoes) would be increased by eating meat (chicken breast) along with it.

This problem was also discussed by Sisson:

Quote:
When we eat protein-rich food, another chemical is released by the body that actually has a contrary effect to insulin. Protein-rich foods also result in a release of glucagon. (Carb-rich food does not.) Glucagon raises blood sugar levels in part to allow for absorption of amino acids in the liver and their subsequent transformation there to glucose.


However Berkhan retorted:

Quote:
Protein is insulinogenic and raises glucagon which triggers the liver to release more glucose. Else you'd go hypoglycemic.

[glucagon]'s not really lipolytic in humans (activates hepatic glycogen phosphorylase), and it's already been stated that apparently counterregulatory hormones won't matter in the face of insulin anyway.


I.e. glucagon is only brought in the picture to avoid blood sugar from crashing if no carbs are supplied, and can't override the effect of insulin.

Heinlein would say "there ain't no such thing as a free snack". OTOH snacking is likely a good idea for people who are not yet used to low carb, and a sensible tradeoff for anyone who find the full transition to IF hard to tackle.

stuward wrote:
If you're under constant stress, IF will add not improve the situation. I'm not saying it does that for everyone, just that it's a potential issue. Crossfit doesn't burn out averyone either, just enough that it's noticable.


Thanks for clearing this up, your previous "fasting is not for beginners" statement did leave me a bit surprised; stress can be a big problem for sure.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:49 pm 
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stuward wrote:
Oscar_Actuary wrote:
What's your stance on canned
wild salmon
tuna
chicken


I eat canned salmon and sardines almost everyday. They are high in sodium so if you have high blood pressue, you might want to look for reduced salt stuff. You also want to make sure it's not packed in some weird oil like soy.


I'm all up in them sardines now, homie.
20 - 4oz packs coming every 2 months, bam.
Mostly eat with raw spnach, a bit of olive oil and whole grain mustard. Sometimes just out of the can
I get water packed, low sodium, with bones and skin.,

thanks again for solid advice. I've come a long way from Mt Dew and cheese crackers for lunch.

yeah, I know, I'm bumpitybumping an old thread.
and what happened to Mark anyway?


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