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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:24 am 
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WOH! LOL! Chill Bob. Chiiiiiiilll....

Restrain the meat head in you, too. This is probably the most difficult aspect of "rehab". NOT being an idiot. I'm going through it myself just now, and been through it a few times. The meat head is your best friend when you're pain free but your worse enemy when you're coming back from injury.

Anyway, the main thing here is tolerance when coming back from injury. I'll give you an example - As you probably know i'm coming back from a hamstring tear. Or whatever it is. Lets just call it a pi$$ed off hamstring (i'm actually seeing my physio on Fri, over 6 months since it happened, lol. Like to take my own advice, ya know).

So, a few months ago, I let the meathead out. I discovered I could do rack pulls and squat high with a close stance without pain. I went in and squatted, then proceeded to rack pull. I didn't go completely nuts. Went up to 160. I figured if I kept it at sets of 8, I would be fine. I was worried about how the hamstring would respond. The next day came and, the hamstring was fine, but my lower felt like it had put through a meat grinder.

I went from practically zero load on my lower back to 160KG x 8 x whatever it was, plus 100kg x 8 x 5. It wasn't complicated, it was stupidity. Can't believe I never seen this coming. It's the meat head. He lowers your IQ by about 90%.

As a result I ditched my plan to keep doing rack pulls and just worked away at the squats. Came up with a strange plan just off the top of my head one sunday in the gym. I wouldn't go over 90KG until I could do 5 sets of 10 with 90KG to powerlifting depth. This is what i've been doing the last few months. It started like this,

week 1: 10 x 50, 60, 70, 80, 90
week 2: 10 x 60, 70, 80, 90, 90.
Etc.

When I got to 5 x 10 with 90kg, I lowered the depth. I done this until I got 5 sets of 10 at 90KG at PL depth. Now I just ramp up sets of 5, going 10 KG heavier each week (hamstring permitting). I'm at 120KG, now.

I just never done DL's until about 4-5 weeks ago. I work up in triples from 60KG, adding 5KG each set, so I get LOTS of sets at light weights. I go until my hamstring "nips", then leave it. Interestingly, this happened at 90KG first, and has moved up 10KG every week, so i'm at 160KG now.

Why 90KG on squats? Just because it's not that heavy to me but, I break a sweat doing it. Why 5 sets of 10? Pretty much just because I hate them, and figured sets of 10 would build "tissue tolerance". The DL's, I played by ear, really.

Bottom line is, if you calculate the volume of your squat work out - weight x reps, and see what it amounts to, it's no wonder you were in pain. The meat head makes this a lot more complicated than it needs to be, but it's actually really simple. Too much too soon!

I'm not telling you to do what i'm doing, just letting you know that it happens to the best of us lol. Also, don't over complicate as a result. Get back on your plan and EASE back into squats. Remember your plan was working before, you just went all meat head for a while.

Forget about the weight you are lifting when you're coming back from an injury, too.

3 weeks-ish would be perfect, i'm off this weekend and so will be jam packed the week after making up sessions, then i'll be back to my normal schedule .

KPj

p.s i'm actually "allowed" to bring a guest at weekends LOL. I've been "sneaking" people in without an actual need to be sneaky.

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:43 pm 
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damn you kenny and your undeniably logical and therefore impossible to argue with posts.

Yeah it was too much too soon, but whoever would've thought you could injure yourself during a back-off set? There's so much potential dysfunction going on right now with my stupid muscles and joints. I foam rolled this morning for the first time since hurting my back on friday and my left IT band was the worst it's ever been. It just seems to be never ending.

I didn't realise that hamstring injury of yours was so serious. 6 months is a helluva long time, maybe I'll be the one teaching YOU to squat properly... How'd you hurt it anyway?

I'm going to grudgingly go back on the program I was on, despite it being boring as hell and not satisfying in the least. I'll change the hip thrusts to high reps and add in the terminal knee extensions and back extensions. Tons of sled work too. I've come to the conclusion that not only does your back take the longest to recover, but also de-trains fastest.

I think I'll just not squat at all until I come and train with you. I'll talk to my boss and see about getting that day off, I'll PM you with the details. Wouldn't want someone else who reads these threads assuming my identity and stealing my tuition. I'll buy you a MaccyD's as thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:01 am 
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Sounds good.

I get a discount in KFC if I go in with my trainer top on. Always makes me laugh saying that. Talk about irony.

As for the hamstring.... Um..... Have you ever heard of "The Cereal Box" game ? Basically, you pick up an empty cereal box with your teeth. Only your feet can be on the floor, nothing else. Goes round everyone then a few inches are torn off the top, making it harder to pick. You keep doing this until the last man is standing.

I was playing this at a gym night out. Basically came to head with 2 female trainers and a pilates instructor lol. I get very competitive. I'm also quite flexible. The technique I opted for was going to towards the splits (at the time I could get about 6-7 inches from the floor), and bending forward. It eventually got down to just a bit of card on the floor, in which case I had to "bounce" my torso forward whilst almost in the splits. Something "popped". It didn't hurt but I knew something happened.

I won the game, btw, but it cost me my hamstring and squat and DL goals for the year! I could barely walk the next few days. One plate on a leg curl machine was agony (i used the leg curl machine to pump it with blood). I didn't really know what it was just assumed it would be ok in a few months but it's still not better. It's "almost" there, though. Kind of ironic that i'm seeing my physio now but, lots been happening this year so I never prioritised it.

In short I was an idiot lol.

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:08 am 
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Good morning Kenny, we seem to be online at the same time

haha, I was expecting you to say you were attempting like a set of widowmaker squats or going for a DL max or something...

at least you won the game. That's by far the most important thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:23 am 
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Yeh, it's quite embarrassing really lol.

The worse is, i'm known to be all about my squats and DL's and strength training in general. I was expected to be worse than the other males in the game you know, because lifting weights makes you inflexible (note sarcasm). I had previously wound up the Pilates instructor about, well, Pilates. I used to tell her that what she needs is to just "lift heavy stuff". She would tell me that I needed Pilates. I would tell her I use "some" pilates in my warm ups, but only the useful stuff, which was about 1-2% of it (of course i'm just being cheeky).

So, everyone was quite impressed to see that I was also flexible. Then I had to tell them it cost me a hamstring lol. BTW the Pilates instructor WOULD of won but she actually bailed out before the female trainers because of what she was wearing. She said she wanted to keep her dignity lol. Can only respect that I guess!

One good thing is the ammo it gives me. When someone tells me that deadlifts or squats or whatever are dangerous, I now hit back with "stretching is dangerous" which always stops them in their tracks. I tell them I tore a hamstring "stretching" so, I guess no one anywhere should ever stretch now because it's extremely dangerous..... Anything is dangerous if you do it wrong etc etc

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:05 am 
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yeah my come back to deadlifts being dangerous is that sitting on your arse for 15 hours a day is doing your back loads more damage then 5 sets of deadlifts a week.

Although then usually folk as how I hurt my back and I stammer a bit, blush and change the subject.

Working in a sport shop on Great Western Road these days (EZ sports, up next to Viper, if you're ever in town come on in and I'll give you mates rates on protein powders - shifts change every week but I'm always in on Sundays) and you hear every weight training myth every day.

"How do I tone up?"
"I don't want to get too bulky"
"You can't absorb more than 50g (or 30, or 40 etc) of protein at a time"
"High reps cut up the muscle"
"Creatine made me really aggressive"

The customer's always right so I just smile and nod politely, but each time I die a little inside.


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:43 am 
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Bob,

do you think your volume is too high when you try to DL or Squat, and maybe more frequency, lower volume, would be better. I suppose you've tried all combinations by now?
I imagine, understand why you go nuts, I got restless taking time off from Sqautting, just for ankle tendon issues. And, clearly, your dedication and love for lifting exceeds mine.

by the way, does your core feel like you work it out as often as you do.. have you noticed a big differnce, and how so?


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:05 am 
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Actually Oz, although I'm pretty sure it was too much volume on my last squatting fiasco, too much volume on the deads wasn't something I'd considered. I think i did 8-10 sets of 3, and stopped long before any kind of fatigue/failure kicked in. That's still potentially 30 reps, so I dunno, maybe. I'll probably try a lot less volume next time (15 reps total I think) but that's miles away.

The thing was, the pain was different after the deads to what it usually is. I usually always have some level of ache in my lower back, right at the base of the spine that hurts if I go to far into flexion or extension, but after the deads, I had my usual ache - times about a million - and a whole new level of hurt running from my lower back up to about halfway up. The new hurt felt much more like it was in the actual back bone, as opposed to being muscular. Doing core work like bird dogs, dead bugs etc alleviates the "old" hurt, but nothing I do can alleviate the "new" hurt, which makes it all the more worrying.

As for my love of lifting, well, as much as I want a 3/4/5 total (that's a 300lb bench, 400lb squat and 500lb deadlift), my number one goal is, and always has been, to reach a ridiculously lean, 200lbs of bodyweight, which is a goal that I can reach whether or not I can squat/dead. I would probably be a lot more despondent if my goals were entirely squat/dead dependent, but at the end of the day I can still achieve it anyway, so to be honest I'm not sure why I keep torturing myself trying to load up my back!

Core doesn't "feel" any different, but it's definitely stronger. I can hold a plank now for a minute without too much trouble (compared to about 25 seconds at the start of the summer), I can rattle out sets of bird dogs and dead bugs, and I can do 3 fairly good sets of stir-the-pot when I used to struggle to do a single rep. Has it made a difference? Nope. Not one bit. At least not in any way I can quantify.


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:07 am 
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hard to say anything without seeing you, really. But I understand your frustration. I went and see my physio. Turns out I did tear the hamstring. No way of knowing how badly it was torn, now, but must of been quite bad and I'm an idiot for waiting so long. However he said i've done quite a good job of rehabbing it. He did manage to isolate the hamstring that I hurt, how to stretch it, and activate it - it was completely de-activated. Couldn't put up a fight against 2 of his fingers. This caused rotation in my "forward bending pattern", which is a no no for deadlifting, so i've had to sideline deadlifts AGAIN lol. I can squat, though, but need to keep the meat head at bay for a little while yet.

I don't care, though, I know i'm close and I know i'll get it back, and I know i'll beat my previous numbers. I know just because I know. It's very logical when you don't think about it.

Also, i've got told end of 2006/beginning of 2007 that I wouldn't be able to bench press again because of the "chronic" damage I done to my shoulder.... This is what angered me into learning about shoulders, and the rest is history. I just refused to believe it. That physio was very dated, though. Stuck in the 80's. Also didn't "agree" with squats..... What? Don't agree with sitting down and standing back up? How does one get through the day then?

Anyway.....

Don't give up. It's a bump in the road. But it is maybe best to forget Squats and DL's right now, so you can stay on track with your main goal.

FWIW, my main training partner had a horrible lower back BEFORE he started deadlifting. Took some time even just to do rack pulls. Even longer to progress to the floor. He's pulled 210KG from the floor several times. I think he's pulled 220 but not exactly sure. Although he still doesn't listen to me (unless he's actually IN pain).

When are you seeing the physio?

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:35 am 
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yeah it is a frustrating time, but I won't give up. I intend to be lifting weights for a very long time so having to take a few more months without deadlifting/squatting won't make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

I was supposed to see the physio today but he had to cancel, we've rescheduled for tuesday. I should have gone and seen him ages ago but I thought I was doing a good enough job of diagnosing myself that I wouldn't need it. Pure arrogance on my part. I'm expecting great things from this physio, he's a certified Olympic lift coach and has a bunch of other training qualifications too. He markets himself as "Sport's Therapy" which I think makes a lot more sense as a choice for me rather than just going to see an NHS physio who'll just give me some anti-inflammatories and tell me not to lift anymore.

I think rack pulls are probably a good idea for when I start to deadlift again, but that's miles away just now. Back to split squats and hip thrusts yet again...


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:19 am 
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Physios can prescribe anti-inflamatories there?!?!?

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:25 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
Physios can prescribe anti-inflamatories there?!?!?


No they can't.

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:05 am 
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robertscott wrote:
He markets himself as "Sport's Therapy" which I think makes a lot more sense as a choice for me rather than just going to see an NHS physio who'll just give me some anti-inflammatories and tell me not to lift anymore.


Let's this clear this jumble up Bob.

Firstly as i said in the post above, a physiotherapist cannot prescribe medication. The clue is in the title physio - physical :wink: Prescriptions are for doctors only. A physiotherapist in the NHS is not going to just send you off with a few pills and tell you to stop lifting, if they do tell them you want to see their senior and file a complaint. Most physiotherapists come from a sports background themselves and fully understand the sports and injury dynamic.

If this guy is marketing himself as a 'Sports Therapist', chances are he's not a 'physiotherapist'. Physiotherapy is an accredited discipline in the UK, which means that to call yourself a 'physio' you have to be a member of the 'Chartered Society of Physiotherapists' to give it's fancy name, or CSP for short. Anyone labeling themselves as a physio who isn't a member of the CSP is breaking the law.

Here's my unsolicited advice, go to your GP and get a referral to see a physio as well as seeing this guy. Why? Because it's free and the NHS has tools that an independent physio/sports therapist doesn't. ie an MRI machine. I have had a bad back that was muscular and my 'story' doesn't match up to yours. If you can hip thrust and split squat what you do, i can't help but think your problem is more than just a lack of strength somewhere. It sounds like there is more going on than that.

Another aspect that your story highlights is the problem of the information age. To become a physio or a sports therapist requires 3yrs at university undergoing a full time course. Just because we can read a few Eric Cressey and Mike Robertson articles on the internet doesn't mean we (by we i don't just mean me and you) suddenly become experts. These guys are trained professionals for a reason.

I'm not having a pop here, but i think you need to cover as many bases as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:28 am 
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ok ok, I was wrong about the anti-inflammatories in that the physios don't prescribe them.

However, I have seen 2 NHS physios in my time (back problems first started in my teens). Their advice was to rest up and take some ibuprofen, so although they didn't technically prescribe anything the end result was pretty much the same.

The guy I'm going to see is definitely a physio, although I understand your concern. He really definitely is a physio though, and is actually the head physio for St Mirren football club so his credentials are sound. The only problem is tracking him down, he's busy as hell (works in the prison service as well I think, rehabbing shiv injuries presumably). The reason I am keen to see a "Sports Therapy" type guy is that he'll hopefully have more experience with this kind of injury (assuming of course that it's not something more sinister).

Your idea about going to see my GP is a damn good one though, my plan was just to see the physio first and get his take on things. I've kind of been thinking for a while that all this posterior chain and core strengthening I've been doing should probably have had more of an effect, but then who knows? Yet another reason to go see the physio.

And it's cool man I didn't think you were having a go, one of the main reasons I decided to start my rehab log was for exactly this kind of brainstorming so pop away!


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:50 pm 
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so "having a pop" means "having a go" ?
Love me some UK phrases.

Ricky Gervaise > Russell Brand


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