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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:36 pm 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
robertscott wrote:
oh yeah and unfortunately I've had to postpone the trip to the physio because of financial issues. The issue being I have no finances.


:lol:
did you just decide to go blow it on dancing and drinking?


well it wasn't a conscious decision, but that's basically what happened...


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Physio is actually quite expensive if it's not covered by insurance or some other source. The 20 visits I made would have cost over $1100. That would have been more than enough to buy one of those little electro machines and take a seminar from Grey Cook in how to fix myself. There's no way I would have paid that out of pocket.

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:22 pm 
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yeah private physios can pretty much charge what they like. I think I'll get mates-rates off this guy but it'll still not be cheap. It's not a great month for me money wise, loads of bills and other unforeseen expenditure. Not to mention I spent a fortune out tripping the light fantastic at the weekend


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:28 am 
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robertscott wrote:
thanks as always for such detailed info Kenny. It's not so much that I was scared of flexion, just that I thought it was best avoided until my back was better.

You've convinced me: toe touch progression it is from now on! I'm going to start tonight. I'll do 5 sets over the course of the evening every evening, supersetting it with thoracic extensions.

Does that sound about right? Is there anything else I should add?


No problem at all.

I'm assuming then that you have Athletic Body in Balance?

If so, then why not do all movement assessments and follow the advice of the book (start with the biggest side to side discrepancies i.e. ASLR, ILL, Seated Rotation if they show any, anyway) ? Don't let the book full you as it can look "too" simple - improving those movements can/will make a huge difference. In fact, my clients "baseline of movement" is pretty much taken from that book. When I improve the baseline, things magically get better. Doing a full FMS isn't really ideal in my gym (and i've not been trained in it, either), so I started out using the assessment from that book. I've modified it over time, but it's pretty much the same. Honestly I would say if you have this book then you have the answer right under your nose.

Have a quiet weekend and go see the physio though! If he's worth his salt he'll take out all the guess work.

BTW in terms of cost, my physio doesn't charge much more than me. He discounts people I send to him (you just tell him i sent you, and you get the lower rate). In that case, I tell clients that need it - instead of seeing me next session, go see this guy. He invites me along to assess the client with him, although I can never make it. I call him afterwards and we discuss training the client. It's got to the point where he sometimes says "you have X and Y going on... Kenny will know what to do with your training". If it's complex, he'll say, "tell Kenny to phone me".

Also, i've sent some real train wrecks to my physio and don't think he's ever taken more than 10 session off anyone. I can only think of one case that he may of taken more than 5. Shirley Sahrmann actually notes in her first book that physios must aim to get clients pain free in as few sessions as possible (by addressing the cause and not just working on the symptom - educating the client/patient/whatever). Quite often my physio will see you once, give you things to do everyday, then tell you to phone him in a month (this really depends on the circumstance, btw). Most of the time, you're pain free by the time you call providing you do what he tells you. I sent my mum to him, who had "sciatica". She said if it wasn't for me bigging him up, she would of walked out thinking it was a waste of time and wouldn't of done what he gave her to do. Low and behold, though, 3 weeks later she's pain free. She thought she'd never run again before that and, at 60+ years of age, ran a couple more 10K's afterwards.

Normally the best advice is the simplest and Gray Cook is a perfect example of that.

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:31 am 
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p.s Just to re-iterate the golden rule - don't do anything that hurts i.e. if you do anything from the book and it hurts, don't do it.

Pain changes everything. Get to the physio! (as it says in the book!)

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:38 am 
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na I don't have athletic body in balance, I just googled the toe touch progression. Is it wise just to do that? Or are there movements I should do first before I attempt the toe touch progression. I'll buy the book, it's on my list, I just dont' have any money for the next couple of weeks.

When I met the physio before he basically said what you're saying: that he'll see me once, assess all the movement patterns, show me how to correct them then send me on my way, with a follow up 6 weeks or so later. It's wicked you have such a good relationship with your physio, but I suppose considering all the injuries you've had over the years you must have seen a lot of the guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:10 am 
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robertscott wrote:
na I don't have athletic body in balance, I just googled the toe touch progression. Is it wise just to do that? Or are there movements I should do first before I attempt the toe touch progression. I'll buy the book, it's on my list, I just dont' have any money for the next couple of weeks.

When I met the physio before he basically said what you're saying: that he'll see me once, assess all the movement patterns, show me how to correct them then send me on my way, with a follow up 6 weeks or so later. It's wicked you have such a good relationship with your physio, but I suppose considering all the injuries you've had over the years you must have seen a lot of the guy.


It could be worth it. Difficult to say how effective it will be. Generally Gray advises you iron out the side to side discrepancies first. The significance is, a lot of the times when you do this, you improve on the other tests without actually working through the progressions. You pick your worse, improve it, and retest the others. It's amazing how everything starts to come together. The toe touch progression is really the basis for "squat to stand" as you see from the likes of Cressey, Robertson, etc.

Basically, it's shooting in the dark.... I don't see any harm in trying it as long as it doesn't hurt.

btw I actually met my physio after I had resolved most of my injuries myself. I had given up on physios. I think I went through 3 different ones, then said, "screw it, i'll learn it all myself and fix it all myself". That's not quite what happened, but it's what started me on the path i'm on. Along the way I seen about another 3, including one "sports therapist" (who wasn't a physio..... and was pretty much useless, just adding to my misguided view).

He was a recommendation via a good trainer (who now works in DW sports at The Forte, btw). I got talking to this trainer when he seen me warming up and came over to me and said, "Have you been reading Gray Cook?". Most trainers don't even know who Gray Cook is. That trainer kept on at me saying I should get certified and start training people. I never listened at first. I then injured my left knee and he told me, "go see this guy". Reluctant to see another physio, I gave myself 4 weeks to fix my knee. It improved a little but not drastically. Pressed by the trainer, I went to the physio. I know now that the Trainer had been telling the physio about me before this. He kept asking me about my training, and kept saying, "how do you know about this, how do you know about that, etc". Then told me I was in the wrong job. We chatted for about an hour and a half (i was his last appointment). The rest is history although the change in direction my life took is still being written. I used to have loads of email conversations with him, pretty much debating various things(we don't agree on everything lol) and getting advice about getting started. I just picked/pick his brains (he actually started off a trainer, so support his cage fighting/mma). Funnily enough he still comments on the "essays" that I send to him (not like me at all).

After that knee injury I went for a "service" every 3-4 months. No injuries just keeping on top of things. So, really, he's had to deal with 2 injuries - the knee, and the hamstring, lol. I dealt with my shoulder, ankle, groin/adductor injuries and posture myself (there's been other issue but i would class them more as niggles than "injuries").

If you/anyone does have a good physio, I would 100% recommend getting a regular check up (every 3-6 months is ideal) even if you feel fine. Dysfunction almost always comes before pain. If you get the dysfunction first, you'll avoid the pain and set backs...

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:23 am 
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I think I will pick up a copy, if anything it'll give me a better understanding of how the body works. I'm quite looking forward to having all my patterns corrected and being able to move properly. I move like an 80 year old.

I've always meant to get a physio check up every few months, I just didn't know of a good one in Glasgow til now, well I assume he's good, that remains to be seen really.

If he sucks I'll just go to Kilmarnock and see the one you use. I would do that if I had to.


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:10 am 
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robertscott wrote:
I move like an 80 year old.


If this is true, then this is your problem. This is why your back hurts, your knee hurts, etc. No one explains "why" better than Gray Cook.

I remember having a "theory" about my training partner, who's had similar issues to me, with similar goals. We would resolve one issue and another would pop up. I said, a few years ago, that it was as if he had the same injury, just popping up in different joints in his body. He had back pain. Fixed that, then shoulder pain. Fixed that, elbow pain. Fixed that, hand/forearm pain. Fixed that, shoulder/neck pain (kind of the same as before but slightly different). Just kept popping up. The only difference in approach between us is that I was all obsessed with improving my movement in general. I wanted to be "athletic". I wanted to be able to nail a pistol and jump without my body hating me for it. I wanted to be able to sprint without muscle strains, touch my toes on command, or play some kind of recreational sport without having to deal with another injury (i.e. I had one game of 7-a-side football, and ruptured ankle ligaments...These things just annoyed me!). He on the other hand had no interest in these things. He just wanted rid of this shoulder/elbow/hand/whatever pain so he could squat/bench/deadlift more (which I also wanted/want).

Then I read Athletic Body in Balance and I just felt like it screamed out to me. It explained what I was just starting to figure out but just couldn't quite put my finger on.... Movement!

Then I started training people and it became even more apparent - those who display the worse movement are easily the most likely to either be in pain already or start to hurt when you try anything remotely athletic. Movement is the common factor.

I often say things like, "I can't touch your knees. That's for physios, and i'm no physio. I can, however, improve your movement, and that just might sort out your knees". I never deal directly with pain, I deal directly with movement. If I can't improve someones movement pain free, that's when I refer out....

Kinda turned into a rant but I enjoyed it :study:

KPj

p.s i'm waiting on Gray Cooks new book "Movement" being delivered, and can't wait!

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:33 am 
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heh, I think everyone on these boards enjoys your rants Kenny.

I've long suspected my quality of movement was the problem, but can it really be fixed? I wouldn't even know where to start but if body in balance takes you right back to the beginning then it's definitely what I need.

So master plan = go see physio, take care of the nagging pains, then work my way through ABIB, taking my movements right back to square one and build myself back up again.

I hate to think how long it'll take to correct 26 years worth of crappy movement...


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:51 am 
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robertscott wrote:
I've long suspected my quality of movement was the problem, but can it really be fixed? I wouldn't even know where to start but if body in balance takes you right back to the beginning then it's definitely what I need.


Of course it can! Grays book basically has you go through the assessments. You pick the worse one and start there. So, it is step by step. I've been able to get people to touch their toes without ever going through the progressions. Same with OH squat. As soon as you fix the worse one, things seem to improve much quicker.

robertscott wrote:
I hate to think how long it'll take to correct 26 years worth of crappy movement...


Assuming you are 26, then that's not strictly true. When you were about 3, you most likely had perfect movement. I'm not sure exactly what age we are when we move perfectly, btw, as I don't have kids. The point is, movement quality is something you had and lost, not something you're learning for the first time. As we know, it's much easier to RE gain than it is to just "gain".

The theory is that the we have a whole bunch of "primitive" movements that we are not taught, but we develop instinctively through our natural development from baby to adult. Straying from these natural movement patterns inflicts excessive stress on our joints, which equals pain (eventually). When our movement changes, it's basically compensation that's happening due to tightness/weakness/shortness/whatever - creating a change in your motor patterns. These faulty patterns are engrained in your CNS, and this becomes what feels "natural". Kind of like a limp, where your body changes how it moves to avoid positions of pain and, if you limp long enough, you tend to keep the limp even after the pain is away. This can keep you going for normal daily activities for an undetermined amount of time, but when you then add strength on top of those patterns, then you're asking for trouble.

Another way of looking at this is the popular "third world squat" - this is possible because they don't have our western lifestyle - too much inactivity. So, they never "lose" the ability to squat, it's maintained throughout their life.

That's what Gray Cook is all about. Basic, primitive movements being the foundation of fitness (and health).

This area is massive and very complex but fascinating. Athletic Body in Balance is enough for you and I and will take us through what we need but, it gets taken further than the basic squatting, pulling, reaching, stepping, rotating, etc. Before this, we develop rolling and crawling patterns. These precede anything that happens on your feet. Many experts will assess this, too. It's interesting. It's beyond me but, I like to mess around with this with friends, training partners, regular clients etc just to try and understand it better.

It's amazing how many people really struggle with this, for example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btzkT1mSY3E

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:08 am 
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well I tried that rolling thing, and I think I did it right, I mean, it was just rolling over... I think though that it's just better to assume that I will fail every single movement test and just go right back to square one, starting at the most basic pattern.

It's quite an exciting prospect to have everything fixed and be able to move and function athletically the way a guy in his 20s should. I've just ordered a copy of the book (it wasn't as expensive, I thought it'd be up there with Stuart McGill's books which are like 50 bucks each!) so my journey to flawless, balanced movement has now begun!


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:19 am 
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With the rolling thing - Yes, it's just rolling over. However, you are only supposed to actively move one of your arms or legs. So, for example, if you're doing the first one in the video, you basically act like there is no life in your legs, almost as if they aren't there. You then begin with the arm but move only from the arm and spine/torso. Some people have no problem with it and others can't budge lol. This was really just an "fyi", though, to help explain where the basis of all this movement stuff comes from i.e. it's not just a bunch of random movements that people want you to be able to do. However, i'm not all that well versed on rolling and crawling (crawling is quite difficult!), i'm in the very early stage of trying to understand it. It's basically the stability patterns we develop before we venture up on to our feet. Apparently some people miss out on these, and things like baby walkers can affect it i.e. if you were thrown in a baby walker too early and too much you can "miss out" on some early essential patterns. It's analogous to training exclusively on machines but expecting it to transfer to athletic activities, or over using a weight belt, teaching your abs to "switch off" since they don't need to work (due to the presence of the belt) - you get a false sense of stability. Anyway, i've rambled far too much!

I think you'll love the book. It should really clarify everything. Gray Cook has a gift, he can explain the most complicated of things in the simplest of ways. The point of ABIB is that we as lifters can pick it up, get an understanding, self assess, and self correct. It also gives you something to work towards. Those movements are your baseline. You'll no longer be aspiring to some mythical standard of mobility and stability. You actually have a goal, and you actually have a way of monitoring progress (or lack of).

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:35 am 
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yeah I've watched a few videos with Gray Cook and he does seem to explain things very well. I'm excited about getting to a decent level of mobility, it's definitely the missing piece of the puzzle. The fact is I look like I'm in much better shape than I am. If I ever try and actually use my strength for anything I crumple like a wet paper towel. Fixing my movement patterns'll take me to new levels of badassery


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 Post subject: Re: Bob's back rehab
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:22 pm 
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that's a lot to read, so I got behind

http://www.amazon.com/Athletic-Body-in- ... 463&sr=1-1

just download the PC Kindle for free thru Amazon (rather than buying a kindle), and book is $10 electronically.


ps. I'm downloading it now. KPJ has pull.


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