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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:15 pm 
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I am new to the board and have a reasonable understanding of most aspects of sports conditioning but something is bugging me at the moment so wonder if you guys can help? Does anyone know if your maximal strength would actually increase if you just did purely plyometric training for 4-6 weeks following a phase of maximal strength resistance training or would you see a definite drop off in your 1RM numbers? I would have thought that your IRM would drop off but that you would be more powerful in a sports specific way but struggle to get my head round it fully! I am talking about a purely plyometric phase not including complex/contrast training etc


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:19 pm 
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seems to me that most people would not be able to generate the force on a jump for example to be comensurate with their squatting
Not sure how much 4 weeks as impacts though, but over longer period and gerneral, I would think for sure 1RM diminishes.

this is based on no science nor experience


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:34 pm 
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I've seen programs prepared both ways over the years. In a true periodicity based program, you probably would use just plyo's for a 3-4 week block. Adding to maximal strength, probably not. But on the same order, your maximal wouldn't decrease much in that time period. The most common use of plyo's from todays schemes, both for strength athletes and Track and Field runners and jumpers would be to combine them. Maybe not on the same day, and maybe so. As an example, in one of Coach Javorek's programs, you would do a standard waved up squat going from around 50% up to around 85-90% with reps decreasing from 10 or 12 down to around 5. This would be followed with jumping or wave squave squats with around 25-30 % of 1 RM back squat. At the end of the sessions, maybe some box jumps, etc
Tim


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Chad Waterbury has written about this a bit, he advocates training both in the same program, although not in the same day. The argument he uses is that the greater your maximal strength, the more power you'll be able to generate with your plyometric training.

check out his website, lots of good stuff on there about it


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Thanks for your help guys. I suppose the main thing that most people would recommend then is keeping the strength work up along with the plyometrics during the same phase of training.

Does this mean that unless it was perhaps an athlete peaking for a specific event or competition there is no real point in doing plyometrics by themselves as after a few weeks there would be a gradual loss in maximal strength and possibly a a consequential loss of overall power anyway?

Can anyone explain in simple terms how someone can be considered significantly more powerful than someone else even though their maximum strenth is much less, technique in their chosen sport not withstanding?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:02 pm 
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something to do with Force = Mass x Acceleration

I think


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
something to do with Force = Mass x Acceleration

I think


More about power = work/time, where work = weight * distance. If you can blast something fast, you've done the same work in less time, so you have more power. That part I'm on firm ground on.

As I understand things, the departure from physics into exercise science is that if you learn to push fast, you are actually learning to recruit your full strength, which makes you stronger on a 1RM. I'm sure there's much more too it :smile:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:12 pm 
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KenDowns wrote:
Oscar_Actuary wrote:
something to do with Force = Mass x Acceleration

I think


More about power = work/time, where work = weight * distance. If you can blast something fast, you've done the same work in less time, so you have more power. That part I'm on firm ground on.



starting with the Power equation..
Power = W * D/dT = W * Velocity

As t goes to 0, seems Power becomes Force (except that part about Mass ~ Weight )
In fact as you know, Force is the Time derivative of Mass x Velocity (aka Momentum)

Anyway, seems you're initial push/jump is driven by the amount of Force you can generate, and thru your sticking points, more Force, will help you accelerate the bar.

I'm prety sure you'll see the flaws here, but I'll stand behind my engineering classes for now


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:33 am 
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I just about get the science part in theory and I have dabbled with plyometrics,particularly upper body stuff like clap hands press ups and medicine ball throws, over the years but still stuggle to understand how I can be more powerful after a plyometric phase but my maximal strength will the stay the same or after a while may even go down!

Being more specific, I am 36 and 6 3 with a rugby background but have started doing a bit of wrestling and MMA training for fitness and out of curiosity as much as anything. I have no pretensions of competing at any great level. At the moment I am 105kg with a 1RM bench press of 140kg and am half way though a power phase of training. I "feel" more powerful in the plyometric exercises that I am doing but after doing a bit of testing my 3RM max lifts have stayed the same. It's possible that the 3 reps have been completed a bit quicker but I am disappointed that my strength seems to stagnate. I would have hoped that the extra power would enable you to lift a bit more or lift the same amout significantly quicker even if the max weight stayed the same.

I suppose it's just one of those things I shouldn't over analyse too much, just always seems strange to me that one person could lift 150kg but be less powerful than someone else who can only lift 100kg.

Is the above reasoning all sound or am I missing something here?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:05 am 
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It would be great Kenny Croxdale Would give us his wisdom on the subject as I'm sure he thinks about this all the time.

In general, the stronger person will be more powerful, but I think it's largely about SAID, or you get better at what you do. There also could be an age componenet. As you get older, power goes down faster than strength. How are you determining that the weaker guy is more powerful?

As far as the periodization, I wouldn't stop working on one fitness component just because you shift focus to another. You should always work the entire spectrum of endurance, strength, power but shift the focus between them. Maybe in the power cycle it's 10, 20, 70%, in the strength cylcle, it's 20, 60, 20%, etc. I just pulled those numbers out of the air. It's just to point out that it'd not all or nothing. Likewise you should work different parts of the stability continum. The more advanced you get in training age, the more complex your training becomes and the more this matters.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:16 am 
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You are confusing power and strength. They are not the same thing. Power depends on speed, as Oscar has so, in his actuarylike way, ably explained. In your example of the 2 lifters at 100 and 150 kg, you are right. Someone who only has the strength to lift 100 kg probably is NOT more powerful than someone who can lift 150. But a person who can lift 135 or 140, could easily be more powerful than someone who can lift 150, if the 150 guy is slow enough.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:28 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
You are confusing power and strength. ...


Who is?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:39 am 
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He is. Not you is. I mean he is the you I meant to address. You are not the you I intended. You are not confused. I think. Maybe you are, I'm not sure. But not about this.

I wrote that about the same time you wrote yours. The warning popped up, but it didn't occur to me that my post would appear to refer to you. This is, of course, why we have the handy little "quote" button.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:59 am 
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Now I'm confused :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Jungledoc, I know what you're saying about the guy who can only press 100kg not being as powerful as the guy who can press 150kg as the discrepancy in srength is presumably too great although I imagine there might be the odd boxer or martial artist etc who would buck the trend?

Is there any way to measure if I am becoming more powerful even if my 1RM on upper body exercises is not increasing? I can only think of timing a set number of reps? Lower body stuff is easier as you can measure jumps.


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