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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:16 pm 
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13lind Dog wrote:
Oh no no. 24 differerent movements is perfect for skinny guy who wants to bulk.
Is that sarcasm? =\

Blatant.

13lind Dog wrote:

1. Take this seriously or don't I dont care, really in the scheme of things.

I'm not here to waste my time, and the whole point of this thread is for more experienced people to set me right. Criticism is one of the fastest ways to progress oneself.
For sure. Btw, I'm a newb as well. The rationale for my point to mention "serious" will be elucidited later (man I hope I used that word correctly)

13lind Dog wrote:
Are you progreassively adding weight?
Do you have a "program" or do you wing it?
Do you have planned weight or rep increases?

I'm trying to stick to 6-12 reps, pushing 1-2 extra reps each workout, and adding more weight once I hit 12 reps.

Sounds good. It might drive me crazy keeping up with all those exercises, but that's me.

13lind Dog wrote:
But it will be a long time getting there if you keep trying to get in your one arm side bend lateral raise coffin corner kick backs.
I'm not going to lie, that made me laugh, hard lol. But levity aside, I'm guessing those exercises are a waste of time?
I only do them when I'm stoned.

13lind Dog wrote:
If I did not know better, I'd say you were trolling. Are you?
Uh no. But talk about an ego killer.
Tell me about it

13lind Dog wrote:
Also, given your program and perpencity for the injuries you list, I wonder if you don't have a bit of errr... resistance to real work - itis?
I don't understand the point here...could you elucidate for me?

Your program looks like something designed for and by a kindergartener. I dont know, maybe it's from men's health mag assorted lifts. I'm cycnical (no kidding) when it comes to newbies and injuries. It smells of rationale to avoid real work All my condolences if it's legit. I've had dislocated shoulder and cannot do Over Head Squats, but have gotten over the fear enoug to be doing OH Presses. Still got lots of room to go for sure.

Have you ever heard of Starting Strength for example as a basic program?

I'm curious what your thinking is for your program?


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Hi BD - I'll leave the discussion about your overall program related to your goals of gaining mass to others more experienced than myself.

My question - do you notice any imbalances?:

Quote:
Thursday
One Arm Shoulder Press: R:11@15lb / L:10@15lb
One Arm Upright Row: R:11@15lb / L:12@15lb
Concentration Curl: R:10@15lb / L:9@15lb

Monday
Concentration Curl: R:12@15lb / L:11@15

Leaving these imbalances is only going to result in...imbalance!

If your left arm falls two reps short of the right arm, try resting and then make up the reps in an additional set.

Good luck with your goals!


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:23 pm 
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Your program looks like something designed for and by a kindergartener.
Damn. Duly noted.

It smells of rationale to avoid real work All my condolences if it's legit.
In the past I've done 3-5 sets, 2-3 times a week and ended up with injuries, and on this site I've read that beginners can benefit immensely from one-set workouts 2-3 times a week, so that's what I'm trying to focus on. Is that incorrect information? Either way, I need an alternative to the normal 3-5 sets, 2-3 times a week. The only other option I saw was do 3-5 sets once a week.

Have you ever heard of Starting Strength for example as a basic program?
I remember reading up on it a couple of years ago, but I don't own barbells, and none of my friends workout, so in addition to, I'm spot partner-less.

I'm curious what your thinking is for your program?

To work compounds with isolations to weed out weaknesses and imbalances.


And you did use elucidate correctly! :D


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:26 pm 
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Ausbris wrote:
Leaving these imbalances is only going to result in...imbalance!

If your left arm falls two reps short of the right arm, try resting and then make up the reps in an additional set.

Good luck with your goals!


I like that advice! I'll definitely try that out...thanks man!


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:38 pm 
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13lind Dog wrote:
It smells of rationale to avoid real work All my condolences if it's legit.
In the past I've done 3-5 sets, 2-3 times a week and ended up with injuries, and on this site I've read that beginners can benefit immensely from one-set workouts 2-3 times a week, so that's what I'm trying to focus on. Is that incorrect information? Either way, I need an alternative to the normal 3-5 sets, 2-3 times a week. The only other option I saw was do 3-5 sets once a week.

Do you think the fact you were doing 3-5 sets per movement 2-3 times per week was the cause of the injuries, or just correlated with them?
Many folks seem to take to that one set advice. I'm no scientist; but for me a beginner, I dont think I get enough from one set. Maybe if you say one top set, with couple sets at 70%+ 1RM, sure.

13lind Dog wrote:
Have you ever heard of Starting Strength for example as a basic program?
I remember reading up on it a couple of years ago, but I don't own barbells, and none of my friends workout, so in addition to, I'm spot partner-less.

You won't have to have a barbell for a serious routine. But, you will need some ample combination of ingenuity, $$$$, creativity, and determination to put together what you need. Me for example, I'm loade but have no building skills. Whereas Ken, he likes to build. And some guys, get their workouts lifitng and tossing big tires, and swinging hammers. Before I got my gym, I used a couple Dumbells, and a $20 duffle bag and $15 back pack filled with bags of pea gravel.


13lind Dog wrote:

I'm curious what your thinking is for your program?

To work compounds with isolations to weed out weaknesses and imbalances.

What are your specific imbalances/weaknesses and which movements are addressing each?


Last edited by Oscar_Actuary on Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:40 pm 
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13lind Dog wrote:
Ausbris wrote:
Leaving these imbalances is only going to result in...imbalance!

If your left arm falls two reps short of the right arm, try resting and then make up the reps in an additional set.

Good luck with your goals!


I like that advice! I'll definitely try that out...thanks man!


No prob - just make sure you stay true to form. 8 good reps and 4 bad ones, don't make 12!

If your form drops off, or your lifting speed slows - that's the end of your set. Rest and then hit it again.


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:29 pm 
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Do you think the fact you were doing 3-5 sets per movement 2-3 times per week was the cause of the injuries, or just correlated with them?
The real unknown answer could go either way. I just personally felt like I was pushing myself too much. Or it could have been poor form. Or both. Nevertheless, here I am trying a 'less is more' approach.


Maybe if you say one top set, with couple sets at 70%+ 1RM, sure.
Interesting idea...I'll definitely keep that one in mind!

What are your specific imbalances/weaknesses and which movements are addressing each?
I figure with my lack of physical strength and size, every muscle of mine has a weakness...so I considered hitting them all.


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:06 am 
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13lind Dog wrote:
Do you think the fact you were doing 3-5 sets per movement 2-3 times per week was the cause of the injuries, or just correlated with them?
The real unknown answer could go either way. I just personally felt like I was pushing myself too much. Or it could have been poor form. Or both. Nevertheless, here I am trying a 'less is more' approach.

Hmmmm. Bad form or frequency & volume which is consistant with many decent programs ? Is it really a toss up? It goes to the "-itis" I spoke of earlier.

13lind Dog wrote:
What are your specific imbalances/weaknesses and which movements are addressing each?
I figure with my lack of physical strength and size, every muscle of mine has a weakness...so I considered hitting them all.

Good idea. But maybe you should consider their size and function when allocating the volume given to them.


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:40 am 
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BD--I was about to give Oscar a hard time for the things that he's telling you about your routine, since they sound vaguely similar to what some people were telling him bout his, just a few days ago--mostly too many exercises. I was even thinking of calling him a hypocrite, in a kind, gentle way. Then I saw your workout posted on your log! That's a lot of exercises.

I don't think that this routine would be very good to pursue for very long. You will probably be able to increase the weight on most of those lifts for a little while, but in the long-run I think you'd be way better off using a few good compound lifts and a few, carefully-selected isolation moves. I know about the 1-set routines that many people advocate, and they may be best for some people. I think that what can confidently asserted about them is that they provide almost as much benefit for a beginner as multiple sets. Almost. For beginners.

With multiple sets, you'll practice the lift more times, and with lighter weight, which will help you groove form better.

There's a lot to be said for simplicity. For instance, look at Matt Z's log. I'm not suggesting that you do what he does, or even close, but just to see how elegantly simple his routine is. He's bee following basically the same approach, with occasional tweaks for years. Or Proper Knob. Same idea.

There's also a lot to be said for not reinventing the wheel. There's a reason why routines like Starting Strength and Strong Lifts are so popular--they are effective. If you can get a copy of Practical Programing, by Mark Rippetoe, it will give you a lot of the theory behind Starting Strength, and the routines the Mark shifts to as his beginners progress in their lifting.

What I really mean is go ahead and do what you're doing for a little while if you are enjoying it, and if you are seeing gains. But consider a well-worked out routine like SS or SL. You may find that it's even better.

By the way, the only exercise on your list that is totally, absolutely, unequivocally and indubitably useless is abdominal vacuums. If you are convinced that they are of any value to anyone, I've got some land in Florida which I'm sure I could sell to you with little effort!

_________________
Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:21 pm 
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With multiple sets, you'll practice the lift more times, and with lighter weight, which will help you groove form better.
Hmmm. Never thought of that...but that's a really good a idea! Post-op I'm pretty sore with no hint of reoccuring aggravated issues...which is nice. But yeah, eventually I won't be able to, nor want to do a one-set routine. I could probably change now to your suggestion, but I definitely don't want to get caught up in a routine of bouncing around. Once I plateau with this, I'm probably going to head to that, and just drop the weight back.


There's a lot to be said for simplicity. For instance, look at Matt Z's log. I'm not suggesting that you do what he does, or even close, but just to see how elegantly simple his routine is. He's bee following basically the same approach, with occasional tweaks for years. Or Proper Knob. Same idea.
Whew! Rummaging through both of their journals was a lot of info to digest...but I'm definitely getting the feel of real compound exercises with iso's.

There's also a lot to be said for not reinventing the wheel. There's a reason why routines like Starting Strength and Strong Lifts are so popular--they are effective. If you can get a copy of Practical Programing, by Mark Rippetoe, it will give you a lot of the theory behind Starting Strength, and the routines the Mark shifts to as his beginners progress in their lifting.
I'll hit up amazon in a bit and put an order in, thanks for the suggestion!

If you are convinced that they are of any value to anyone, I've got some land in Florida which I'm sure I could sell to you with little effort!
Well, since I'm already here!
...I kid, I kid.


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:06 pm 
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I'm sorry if I missed this earlier, but what are you training for exactly? Bodybuilding? Powerlifting?


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:30 pm 
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Hmmmm. Bad form or frequency & volume which is consistant with many decent programs ? Is it really a toss up?
Very good point, and I definitely won't dismiss that theory at all.

Good idea. But maybe you should consider their size and function when allocating the volume given to them.

I guess you're right. No one really is looking to get their Supraspinatus to do a 100lb 1RM.

I'm sorry if I missed this earlier, but what are you training for exactly? Bodybuilding? Powerlifting?
Right now I just want to put some weight on. After that? I have no clue. I'm not in any competitive sports, and I'm not really into extreme bodybuilding. So hopefully I'll figure something out besides the normal "It's good for you" reason.


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:57 pm 
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13lind Dog wrote:
[b]
Right now I just want to put some weight on. After that? I have no clue. I'm not in any competitive sports, and I'm not really into extreme bodybuilding. So hopefully I'll figure something out besides the normal "It's good for you" reason.


OK, I've kept my yap shut for a while now. I'm an old timer, and here's how it was done in the day, based on these premises. You need stimulation, not annhilialation. Stimulation comes with some heavy, hard work, and that requires compounds. You want to hit it with some isolation, OK, at the end of the session, with a couple of lifts. Eric wrote a GREAT post on this, with a sample program. I'll see if I can dig it up. I may have put it in the good enough to keep forum. Then, you grow while you rest and sleep. Finally, with rest and stimulation, you have to have enough input to allow you to grow. Boils down to Lift heavy, rest, eat, eat some more, rest some more, sleep, repeat.
Tim


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:00 pm 
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cool man, I was just asking because depending on what you're trying to do we could recommend a better routine. Not that your routine is bad necessarily, it's just that there's a million good routines out there written by coaches that could get you to where you want to be faster than if you try and design one yourself.

For example, EVERYONE except me will recommend you do starting strength, but for physique purposes it is a stinky, stinky bitch. If you're looking just to add mass and look good, then there's other ways.

If you are looking for athletic performance then something like WS4SB is a decent choice.

What I'm getting at is if you outline your goals clearly, then it's easier to pick a routine.


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 Post subject: Re: BD's discussionaire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Couple things off the bat:

I can not, no matter how hard I try, stress how important diet is. It is, and I'm willing to bet my next two mortgage payments, 99% of your "problem".

You want to know why you go injured with low to moderate volume (which you were doing)? Your aren't eating enough. Period.

You want to know why you're so significantly under weight? You aren't eating enough. I am your height and outweigh you by quite literally 100lbs.

You need to be worried about the following diet wise, and in this order:
1) total caloric intake
2) total caloric intake
3) macro breakdown

You have a long, long road ahead of you if you truly want to gain. I imagine you either eat like a baby bird, or have the metabolism of a cheetah on meth, crack & 13 pots of coffee.

This should become your breakfast (yes the first of 3-5 meals you will eat a day):
1+ cup of oats
1+ cup of cottage cheese (or yogurt)
1/2+ cup of Peanut Butter (natty is preferred)
1 green apple (any tart apple will do)
lactade (lactose free milk) to consistency preferred
Cinnamon to taste
3 scoops of whey
blend, and drink with 6 grams of fish oil

Why the lactade? Because this is going to bloat you, make you feel ill, and have farts that could clear a hospital wing, without real milk. It is going to take you a couple weeks to get accustomed to this. But you are going to do it. (Get phsillium husk fiber, become one with it, love it, live it, and never need TP again.)

Lunch:
4 slices of whole wheat bread
2+ oz of cheese
2 cups of chicken salad or tuna
some sort of veggie

Dinner:
2+ cups of wild/brown rice
14-18oz of steak. Yes, red ass, fatty ass, dirty ass, meat. Grilled to a medium rare, and eat most of the fat.
veggies

Before you go to bed, you're going to gag down a 3-4 scoop protein shake. Not to mention the nuts, jerky, and shakes you are snacking on during the day.

Are you going to start this tomorrow? Not at these amounts, but this, at a minimum is what it took for me to get from 200 to 260, and then a leaner 240. AT YOUR HEIGHT, and the metabolism of someone kicking down 30's door. $h1t I was taking shots of EVOO when I couldn't break 220. Yes, I would pour oil in a shot glass and drink it. (Fat triggers the defecation mechanism in your gut, watch out.)

You are going to have to eat like a damn champion to get to a normal weight at your height. Dude, 185 is going to be skinny for you, but will be light years better than 145. You need to eat, eat eat eat and then eat some more.

I am going to split out the routine portion of my posts, just to emphasis how important your diet is. You don't need to eat like a contest bodybuilder, but don't live on IHop and ice cream sandwiches either.

You got hurt because you don't eat enough. I promise.


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