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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:18 pm 
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I second that motion.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:18 pm 
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"If I were to just come out and say I just plainly don't believe any religion and live life by own moral values and "belief system", I would deeply offend them (even though they are aware of this). It would basically be World War 3." - KPj

I don't see anything offensive about it. Nor do I expect everyone to share my beliefs.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:40 am 
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KenDowns wrote:
I think the thread qualifies for being closed, regardless of who said what to whom, why or when. Do I have a second?


It's just getting interesting Ken.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:20 am 
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KPj wrote:
I'm going against my better judgement and chiming in. I typically avoid expressing my views on religion. I come from an interesting back ground where it was never forced upon me but, as bizarre as it sounds, half of my family are strict-ish Catholics (long story how "half" of them are). A couple of close friends are religious, too.

Normally i'm happy keeping my mouth shut and I have been (other than this thread). However, what does rile me just a little is really what's happening here,

If I were to just come out and say I just plainly don't believe any religion and live life by own moral values and "belief system", I would deeply offend them (even though they are aware of this). It would basically be World War 3. Yet, they can say to me, "God is with her", "God is by her side". This actually deeply offends me (only recently, really) but somehow it's ok for them to say it but I could never say the opposite or what i really think.

I think to an extent that's what's going on here. Recently i've felt like, as Ironman so eloquently put, i've had a penis waved in my face.

I hate to get directly involved and actually, I think the whole debate about whether it's true to not is pointless (although it is at times entertaining) and probably misses the point for most believers. However I think it's worth considering that in the same way a believer can get offended by seemingly insensitive remarks by a non-believer, the opposite can occur, particular when a statement is made that only a believer could see sense in (sometimes or even often at the expense of logic).

KPj


Yea, that's the double standard I see. I have a thick skin and can go with the flow though (you have to, to be openly atheist in America). I don't get offended per say, but if someone uses it to make an assertion of truth, I make a counter argument. Some of the more extreme stuff offends me, but I don't let it get to me. However I think if I just lost a loved one and I was told some really inane religious platitude, particularly about god's plan or something, I would utterly lose it. Other than that, it's nearly always just a counter argument.

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I think the whole debate about whether it's true to not is pointless (although it is at times entertaining) and probably misses the point for most believers.


That's exactly right. For a lot of religious people it's about faith, so the whole thing is completely pointless to them. Some of them look at apologists as heretics, as if attempting to prove god devalues faith. You can argue against the rationality of faith, but one argument and it's over, because they don't care.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:39 am 
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Jebus
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I think, the perfect example of a double standard. The same is especially true of many muslims, if we do anything to offend their religion, (which is incredibly easy by the way) they lash out in pandemonium and then demand, 'tolerance.'

That's true of some of them. It's true of the vast majority to a small extent too. You have to keep in mind though they do face a lot of persecution in certain countries like the US, and even in some parts of the UK. So there is a lot of oversensitivity, but they face real discrimination in some places. The same goes for Christians in Muslim majority countries. Really religious minorities in general face some adversity like that.


Ken, I understand where you're coming from. You did enter into that conversation of your own free will. Again, I am sorry you got your feelings hurt. That wasn't how I wanted that to go. I've tried to make up, but this is a two way street here.


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I don't see anything offensive about it. Nor do I expect everyone to share my beliefs.

That's a nice sentiment, I appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:47 am 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
It is difficult as someone who believes in such a “factless” theory as Creation, that non believers are equally as offended. I get the “Have a Blessed Day”s can get annoying when you subscribe to science only. Or, in the case of loved ones who are truly sick and someone thinks the best thing to say to you is “She’ll be in a better place”.

One difference, at least among genuine Christians would be the sentiment with which it is delivered. Of course, there are a large number of times “Christians” use it cynically or damn others joyfully to hell – I’m not defending them. Ironman specifically, I read your comments about religion (or those who would believe such a “looney fantasy” ) and it comes off as mean spirited. Being told over and over again there is no rational reason (except some “innate need for comfort for those too weak to deal with life”) seems insulting, ya? If I kept posting statistics on the percentage of crimes committed by non-whites, wouldn’t I look racist? Saying what you believe to be the truth can still be hurtful.

Finally, you quite often assert that what you say “is truth”. Of course we’re all big boys and girls and know the internet posting implies “imo”; but using the phrasing does add some bitterness to your assertions. And surely you see the difference in tone between say you and many other atheist on this board?

ETA: All quotes are mine, not actual things Ironman said, but may have and at least provide how it sounds to me when he posts.


Your paraphrasing of me are all things that are in some cases a little harsher, and in other cases MUCH harsher than anything I would say....well about religion anyway. So I think this shows how sensitive you are, and that you are seeing implications that aren't there, and taking comments much worse than face value, or how they were intended. At least now I think I have a better understanding of where you are coming from, and why this is coming out in this way.

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Finally, you quite often assert that what you say “is truth”.

I never assert, unless I think I am saying something that is pretty well established. If you notice, I usually provide a logical argument, for WHY it is true, and/or empirical evidence. It's not an opinion, if it's an objective fact that can be proven with logic or evidence. If you don't agree you can offer a rebuttal, or if it's something I thought was not in question by anyone, and you don't agree, you can always ask for an explanation.

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If I kept posting statistics on the percentage of crimes committed by non-whites, wouldn’t I look racist? Saying what you believe to be the truth can still be hurtful.

In this instance you would have to rely on logical fallacies to make it look like that. Statistics can lie when applied in deceptive ways. I have actually debated people who tried to assert that sort of thing. Their arguments are full of holes and easily defeated. Believing something is the truth, and having a basis for knowing it's true are two different things.

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and know the internet posting implies “imo”

It's not. I actually have a basis in logical deduction and/or empirical evidence. Unless of course it's a subjective thing. If I'm not sure, or I'm speculating, I usually say so. I can make a mistake, but I don't believe anything without reason. It's part of being a skeptic/rationalist. I know most people don't do things that way, so it's hard to understand.

Evolution/natural selection is as rock solid as science gets. There is even more evidence for it than gravity. I know you may have learned differently, but I can assure you it's not actually true. Evolution is a proven thing. There are transitional fossils and even better cellular evidence. Epigenetics in particular is very strong conclusive evidence. Now that I understand where you are coming from, I want to try to communicate this in the nicest way possible.

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And surely you see the difference in tone between say you and many other atheist on this board

You mean Jebus? All 1 of them. That's the only other outspoken atheist here. He was pretty hardline at one time. He seems to avoid the topic lately though, unless someone else is already talking about it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:40 am 
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Ironman wrote:
However I think if I just lost a loved one and I was told some really inane religious platitude, particularly about god's plan or something, I would utterly lose it.


Yes, it's this, really. So I also come from an emotionally biased position. However, when I hear things about God looking out for someone literally going through hell, deep down it offends me because I can't help but consider the logic (not even the evidence, just the logic) and, to be frank, become infuriated by it. In my case I do appreciate the sentiment and I try and bare in mind that i'm probably being overly sensitive because i'm emotionally involved, which is why I tend not to say anything out loud.

It never used to bother me at all before. I'm an Atheist, btw. However, as mentioned I was never forced to be religious and was left to make up my own mind. Religion just never moved me. A lot of "outspoken" atheists were forced into religion then converted so they tend to be quite bitter about it. I didn't go through that which is probably why I tend to never get involved in religious discussions - it's not something I was ever passionate about.

It's worth mentioning that people of faith become infuriated by the logic behind religion, too. In fact, i sometimes feel sorry for the priest that deals with my grandmother every week, as she desperately tries to find "answers". She would never, even for a second, question her faith but, she (and i'm sure many others) question the logic, particularly when times are hard.

KPj

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:45 am 
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KPj wrote:
Ironman wrote:
However I think if I just lost a loved one and I was told some really inane religious platitude, particularly about god's plan or something, I would utterly lose it.


Yes, it's this, really. So I also come from an emotionally biased position. However, when I hear things about God looking out for someone literally going through hell, deep down it offends me because I can't help but consider the logic (not even the evidence, just the logic) and, to be frank, become infuriated by it. In my case I do appreciate the sentiment and I try and bare in mind that i'm probably being overly sensitive because i'm emotionally involved, which is why I tend not to say anything out loud.

It never used to bother me at all before. I'm an Atheist, btw. However, as mentioned I was never forced to be religious and was left to make up my own mind. Religion just never moved me. A lot of "outspoken" atheists were forced into religion then converted so they tend to be quite bitter about it. I didn't go through that which is probably why I tend to never get involved in religious discussions - it's not something I was ever passionate about.

It's worth mentioning that people of faith become infuriated by the logic behind religion, too. In fact, i sometimes feel sorry for the priest that deals with my grandmother every week, as she desperately tries to find "answers". She would never, even for a second, question her faith but, she (and i'm sure many others) question the logic, particularly when times are hard.

KPj


I was raised to be religious. So I do have some baggage about that. I find certain things like the infinite punishment of hell for a finite "crime" to be morally depraved. I really can't think of anything more vile and unfair. It's not that people discussing it offends me, so much as I find the idea utterly despicable. Prayer and the violation of gods causality in light of his omniscience, the way no matter whether a prayer is answered or not, it's still attributed to god, but nothing bad is blamed on him, the strange barbaric ideas of morality that mirror the times they were written in, the way god has to become Jesus and sacrafice himself to himself to forgive people, instead of just forgiving them, particularly in light of the "sin" having to do with a crime committed by a distant ancestor prior to them knowing right from wrong, in a precarious situation god left them in, and stuff like the ark.... it just makes no sense. So the lack of logic bothers me as well.

When I was a kid I just figured it would make sense when I got older, and carried on believing anyway. It never made sense. The more I thought about it, and the more I read the bible, the more I realized that. Now the platitudes common in speech here in the US, just make me roll my eyes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:01 pm 
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@ Ironman - I can understand why you would be irritated with Steffan for inserting religion into a factual discussion about science, not to mension his condescending tone, or the fact that he states his beliefs as fact. However, when you attack religion you also come off as condescending. That rubs a lot of people the wrong way (myself included). Meanwhile, some of us expect more from you.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Getting back to the original topic, I once compared my hand to the life-sized hand print of a gorilla. Surprizingly, the fingers were no longer than my own (which are fairly short). However, the gorillas actual hand was MUCH longer. This presumedly has some advantage for the gorilla ... possibly allowing greater grip strength. Meanwhile, I've often wondered if there might be some inverse relationship between strength and dexterity/fine-motor skills ... at least with regards to bone structure.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Matt Z wrote:
Getting back to the original topic, I once compared my hand to the life-sized hand print of a gorilla. Surprizingly, the fingers were no longer than my own (which are fairly short). However, the gorillas actual hand was MUCH longer. This presumedly has some advantage for the gorilla ... possibly allowing greater grip strength. Meanwhile, I've often wondered if there might be some inverse relationship between strength and dexterity/fine-motor skills ... at least with regards to bone structure.


I've always thought that might be the case too. Neanderthals supposedly had a lot of grip strength. I remember seeing an article about that a couple years ago.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:24 pm 
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In my head I always pictured Neanderthals living in an open steppe or tundra type environment, but in fact they lived largely in wooded valleys. That might parly explain why they aren't known to have developed projectile weapons ... in dense forest a thrown spear would be very likely to deflect off branches and miss its intended target.


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