ExRx.net

chances are most of you would have read this article anyway, but here's an excerpt from the new Bret Contreras article on t-nation.



you all owe me a drink

Preposterous!

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Prove the impossible!

I'd actually like to read these studies. Are any available to us?

ask Bret on the T-Nation livespill

deja-vu. I remember having this discussion already. I know there is post not too far down, where I talk about exactly what's wrong with those studies.

well Ironman to be fair you say "I think the greater activation of the hip flexors could account for that reading. We also have no way to account for those readings being that way from a physiological perspective. So while the readings may be proven, thinking it comes from emphasizing the lower abs is simply presupposition, without some sort of mechanism for how it is possible"

which may be the case, but we don't really know the whole story. Also, would you not think that the experimenters would account for extraneous variables such as hip flexor activation when conducting the experiment?

Surely "I think" would never satisfy someone as scientific as yourself.

As for the mechanism, well he does propose the theory about different portions of the abs being responsible for different functions, trunk and pelvic stability, which would certainly make sense and definitely jives with my own experiences

***edited to clarify my position slightly

I've emailed Bret to ask about how they controlled for greater hip flexor activation. Will keep y'all posted...

Showing increased "lower" ab activation WITHOUT hip flexion would probably have me convinced.

Also liked the quote/note from Charlie Weingroff via Mike Robertsons blog
http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blo ... weingroff/

"EMG is fraudulent and stupid – handle some weight and lift."

I don't understand EMG enough to make a proper judgement on it. However, there's just something not right about it, and a few very reputable people have said it's useful but, doesn't tell us the whole story. In other words, i'm hesitant to put my house on the validity of the data.

Not to mention the usefulness of it (I believe he "disproved" spot reduction in the same section of the article, too). For example, lets say you can convince me that movement X really does activate the lower abs more than the upper abs, my response would be, "so what?".

KPj

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Thanks TimD

to rock those hawt abz Kenny, why else?

(on a side note, Kenny I'm going to give you a shout over the next few days to see if we can arrange a session)

You misunderstand me. I'm not making a claim that we know exactly what this reading means. On the contrary, I'm saying that we don't know. There are other explanations he hasn't discounted, and he has no mechanism for how this is supposed to work. So this can only come about through some degree of presupposition, and is therefore junk science.

Does he mean abs in total, or the rectus specifically? I would agree with the former and not with the later. Experience doesn't matter. Anatomy is what matters. How exactly can sections of abs be isolated to a degree that makes any difference?

He needs a mechanism for how his hypothesis is possible, and not just some presupposed idea he extracted from his anal cavity.

We know that doing a particular movement causes neural adaptation, and allows one to get better at that movement. This can be done with one movement, and not nescisarily translate over to a very different movement done with the same muscles. I submit this as an alternate explanation. That's just off the top of my head.

I didn't misunderstand you, but I don't think I explained myself very well.

I think he has proposed a mechanism of what it does - with the upper abs being responsible for trunk stability and the lower abs being responsible for pelvic stability - but agree that he hasn't proven a way in which this is possible. But, I don't necessarily take that as meaning that it is impossible.

And I still don't think it's fair to say it is junk. He's looked at some evidence, and formulated a theory. As I'm sure you know (you strike me as being very well read on philosophy so I assume you're familiar with falsificationism, you probably actually know a lot more about it than I ever will!) you can never really PROVE a theory, just support it, and the links he provided certainly support his. He does present it as a fact, which may not be very responsible, but I think any academic could probably be accused of the same thing.

I don't expect I've convinced you of anything, and I know you say experience is irrelevant, but my experiences are not irrelevant to me. I've always believed the lower portion of the RA can be emphasised (not isolated) and will always believe that. Even if Contreras changes his stance, I will not change mine. The link Dub posted in the last thread we had about this, plus the studies Contreras mentioned and his own personal research support my theory.

Another example from my own life (again, I know this isn't scientific but it explains where I'm coming from): I have added in a few sets of cable crunches at the end of my leg routine to give my abs a bit more "pop". I had been doing them kneeling. and felt the lactic acid burn in the top 4 of my 6 pack. Tonight, for the sake of variety, I decided to do them standing. I felt the middle portion of my abs much more emphasised. This cements in my mind the idea that it can be done.

But yet that isn't the end of the discussion?



It doesn't have to. You can't prove there are no dragons either.



His conclusion is presupposed. That is a definitive trait of junk science, and at odds with the scientific method.

Yea, after he decided what the conclusion was.


Irrelevant. That has no bearing on this being junk science.


That's not something that is wrong with it.

Not in every context.

That is obviously an exception. Explore this idea further by watching the move "Contact".


That's the problem. You believe something without reason, and while disregarding the relevant physiology that makes such belief quite irrational. This has left you open to confirmation bias. This means you are biased to accept this study without scrutiny. This is an example of what is wrong with this sort of belief. A little speculation about possibilities is one thing, but actual belief is problematic.


That's even worse. The belief is so hard set, no empirical evidence or logical argument will convince you otherwise. The human propensity for this behavior is the root of most things wrong with this world, and the reason virtually all such things are nearly impossible to change. You do it with abs, which is virtually meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but others do it with much more important ideas.


No, it just triggers the confirmation bias phenomenon.



The rectus is not the only muscle involved here, which is the problem with that. Such an experience is a perfectly valid way to come up with a hypothesis. However looking into anatomy should show you it is highly unlikely. There is also the issue that the area of your brain that receives these pain signals usually isn't sophisticated enough to know exactly where it comes from. Abdominal pain is notorious for this.


Furthermore the tests can more readily be explained by which neural connection carried most of the signal that made it contract. You'd have a better case for working the left and right sides independently, but even that doesn't work. One reason for that, is the same nerves feed the obliques, and any unilateral movement activates that rather than isolating one side of the rectus; but at least the fibers aren't joined, although they are connected by other tissue.

I'm amazed that guys like Contreras can really be competent with EMG. Not that he isn't, but it's surprising to me if he is. Neurolotists and Rehab docs spend a long time learning to do it, and they start with a pretty deep knowledge of neuroanatomy and musculoskeletal anatomy. I don't know where he learned to do it. Did he just buy the machine and start hooking it to himself? I'm not sure I'd put a lot of weight in his EMG work. Not sure that surface EMG is the technique that can really produce the data that one would need to reach good conclusions about these things.

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Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan

I think that's spurious. There is no scientific evidence to prove foam rolling works, but I have seen it time and again with my own eyes. Just because there's no scientific explanation for something, doesn't mean I won't believe it if I observe it.



he drew his conclusions from his own experiences, and then the EMG tests supported his theory. Perhaps that is junk, but it works for me. The only thing I can see wrong with that is that EMG might be suspect...



I disagree, his results and the results of others support his theory. Seems relevant to me.



Oh really? I'd be interested to hear an explanation of this if it doesn't take us too off topic



cool, I will, thanks for that. What a minute, that's not that rank film where Jodie Foster contacts aliens is it? If it is, I've seen it, and I don't much care for it...



I disagree that it is without reason. I believe it because I have observed it. Had I never observed it, I would not believe it.



again, it's not that I have this belief based on some thousand year old scroll discovered in the lost city of Atlantis or something. I've seen it with my own two eyes, and felt it in my own six pack.

I do actually consider myself quite a skeptical individual, but I can tell from where I feel lactic acid, DOMS and fatigue in my abs what exercises have emphasised each bit.



I must've been asleep in class the day they taught us about the confirmation bias phenomenon. Doesn't change the fact that the studies presented support my view though...



Oi! Who's brain you calling unsophisticated???

heh, well at least we can agree my experiments on myself were reasonable. My knowledge of nerve connections and things isn't great so I can't really give an explanation here. Perhaps different exercises not only emphasise different portions of the RA, but also change the degree of involvement of the other ab musculature. I'm just brainstorming here...

interesting discussion this.

Foam rolling was mentioned so I had to jump in.

Foam rolling kinda sorta has a mechanism - it's quite vast and complicated subject, seems to be still in its infancy in terms of our understanding, and is definitely currently beyond me. However to say there is no research is definitely misguided. I've still not had the time to get my head around the research that's out there already. There's been loads of research done on "manual therapy" and the various techniques that this entails, although even that is still in its infancy. Foam rolling pretty much tries to do a similar job to a manual therapist. People probably do a search on pub med for "foam rolling", don't find anything, and say, "there's no research". It's kind of like saying there's no research to prove a gun has ever killed someone (bullets kill people).

I don't fully understand it, to be honest (I also don't understand how an engine works but, I still drive my car). I just kind of roll my eyes when I hear the "no research" point. One person I use as a resource for this stuff is Patrick Ward - http://optimumsportsperformance.com

Also,



To me this part of the issue. When was the last time you felt all these things when doing chin ups? According to the same source (Bret), they work your abs better than the exercises you mentioned. If lactic acid, DOMS, and apparent fatigue were good indicators of how hard they were working, then the chin up point would be wrong. Therefore, you need to question the relevance of these things especially when trying to determine the effectiveness of an exercise. I'm sure he cited Turkish Get ups, too, as one of the best ab exercises. Whilst you'll definitely feel DOMS the first few times doing them, it's very unlikely you'll actually "feel" your abs doing anything in the process.

In other words, by this logic, chin ups, get ups, squats, dl's, OH press, etc, don't work the abs.

I agree, interesting discussion

KPj

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Thanks TimD