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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:41 am 
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First of all.. very amusing registration process to weed out the spammers, seems as though it works, which is great.

Anyway, I've always avoided actually posting on most fitness/weight training forums, remaining a lurker, until now, only because I think most of the people here are pretty level headed, and somewhat friendly, and knowledgeable.. unlike a lot of other similar forums.. I also love the main site itself, which has been a great resource.

MY STATS

6'4" / 193cm
213lb / 96.5kg
28 yo

Probably more of a mesomorph, very broad shoulders, skinny hips (when I haven't got fat surrounding it), but I haven't got much mass at all on arms or shoulders. My legs are very built, but until now, I've never really experimented with weight training, always been a cardio bunny. Currently I think with my muscle mass as it is right now, I'm about 6kg's overweight. Right now my goal is to cut down to about 90kg, then start a serious bulking phase. And this is how I'm currently doing it. I've already lost about 5-6kg and 4.5" off waist (in around 8 weeks).

TRAINING

Mon - Shoulders
Tue - Legs
Wed - Chest
Thu - Back
Fri - Arms

My routines are not that specific at the moment, as I haven't been logging my weights or reps, saving that until I start bulking phase. But generally I will do 6-10 different exercises each day and aim for a minimum of 4 sets. I try push out 12 reps in the first few sets and go hard, then try maintain weight and smash out at least 10 (12 if I'm feeling it) in the 3rd and 4th set. Sometimes I'll only do 3 sets, I just go by feel at the moment, and no 100% strict rep/set structure. I don't follow any pull/push routine, just try to separate the muscle groups out (particularly spreading Shoulders/Chest/Arms out with leg/back days in between).

For an example of one routine, lets say legs, which I'm doing tomorrow will consist of;

Seated Leg Press Horizontal (will move to incline when gain more experience)
Squats (barbell)
Leg Extension
Deadlift (trap bar)
Standing Calf Raise (cable)
Lying Leg Raise

maybe
Seated Calf Raises (on a plate loaded machine at end of workout depending on how I'm feeling)


Then also, depending on how I'm feeling, I might throw in 20-30 mins of light cardio (130bpm) on a bike at the end of my workout (after I've had my post workout shake). The cardio is always optional for me, for example last week I hit the cardio 3 days out of the 5. I also go for a brisk walk for 30-40min first thing in the morning before eating (I aim for 7 days a week, but realistically its 5-6).

Here is a copy of my Shoulder routine, I've just copy and pasted this from my notes file.

WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/BBMilitaryPress.html
WeightExercises/DeltoidLateral/BBUprightRow.html
WeightExercises/DeltoidPosterior/BBRearDeltRaise.html
WeightExercises/DeltoidLateral/DBLateralRaise.html
WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBFrontRaise.html
WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBShoulderPress.html

(can't post URL's so removed the exrxnet)

If anyone wants to know my other routines, I will post them up later. But they're all pretty similar style and you get the general idea.


NUTRITION

Currently aiming for about 2200 calories per day, split up through 7-8 meals. Currently my macronutrient ratio is around 40% carb, 10% fat, 50% protein. I'm finding it hard to get to the 10% fat, so trying to supplement with a couple fish oil tabs every meal. I try to eat whole foods as much as possible, but I will have 3 shakes per day (pre and post workout, plus a late morning shake). Try to eat unrefined carbs as much as possible. Brown rice, wholegrain wheat cereal etc. No bread whatsoever. All my carbs are really low GI. Get a good dose of green veg every day, plus a daily multi vitamin. Also drink A LOT of water, some days maybe 8 litres (270fl oz) or more. The only supplements I take currently are protein shakes, and two scoops of xtend (intra-workout).

Once I've reached my weight goal of about 90KG I will start a proper bulking phase. The idea behind this routine/regimen is that when I want to start bulking I don't have to change much, except double my food intake (will go up to about 4000 cal) and start logging my exercise routines and rep/sets, to monitor progress and strength gains. My initial 5 day split will stay the same for approx 12 weeks (give or take a few weeks depending on how I feel I am progressing, then I will change it up with a push/pull routine or something different).



So what do you guys think? I've done my research, and been influenced a lot by my best mate, who is similar body structure to me, and has got great results in the past, and has developed his nutritional and training knowledge gradually over the years. Also trying to be open minded all along (I have a joke with my mate that no matter what you read anywhere, I could find someone or something saying the exact opposite). So my main theories are, good nutrition, caloric deficit (for now), train FKN hard, and stick to it.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:34 am 
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How experienced are you? I just have few conserns about your program.
I think it's not that bad, there are just few things I would like to look at.

First off, five days in a row with 6 to 10 exercises per workout is alot. It's very very lots. In weight loss and weightlifting, more work doesn't always cause more results. I think you are a bit off the charts here. One thing you should remember is that even though you have only a "chest day" or an arm day doesn't make it so that the muscles around that isolated parts don't get work. Example, on chest day, I bet your triceps and shoulders are already in hell of a stress. The same goes with many of the back movements and arms.
I'm just a bit conserned this might lead to some overtraining. Especially with 6 to10 exercises per day, which is also huge. Many bodybuilders prefer 3 to 5 exercises. The main point however is to do every set properly. Do not go to failure each workout. It's bad for you, and very bad for your nervous system, especially in this case.
Be sure how you feel after few weeks, you know yourself if you need to adress more rest days on to the workout.

About your splits. On your leg day, do the biggest compound movements first, because they support your goals the most. Squat first, deadlift second. Or vice versa, I just like it in that order. Then do all those extensions and leg presses. I would actually replace the extensions or pressing with some more intended hamstring or glute work. Stuff like RDL, Glute bridges/hip thrusts, Hamstring curls or something like that. On the shoulders day the last shoulder press is just odd. I would dump it. If you already do some kind of vertical pressing at first, you don't need to repeat that as the last exercise. DB shoulder press is a great exercise tho, you can alter it with military presses to get some variety if you want.

The after workout light cardio doesn't mean much to me. I don't really believe in a proper cooldown, but it probably wont hurt you. What would support your goals more, would be 10 to 20 minute intensive interval training. I like the idea of a walk before breakfast. Delaying breakfast is a good way to increase fat loss and promote muscle growth.
The diet looks good too. Pretty many meals, you could reduce the amount to just 3 or 4, but if that's more comfortable then I have no problem with it. It's just my preference. Boy, you drink hell of alot of water. I don't know if it could be bad for you, but I quess you are the one who knows best.

And finally, I would start that logging already. When you are cutting fat, it doesn't mean you can't make progress. Logging is awesome and very useful, no matter what your goals are.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:01 am 
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I don't really like the routine or the diet. They could be a whole lot worse, but they're not great...

Your main focus is weight loss, yet you spend a whole day training nothing but your arms? Not a very efficient use of your time.

Get off the bodypart split and do either full body or upper/lower. Upper/lower would probably suit you as you seem to like to spend a lot of time in the gym. Upper/lower you can be in there four days a week whereas with the full body you could probably only do 3.

Also, 40% of your calories from carbs is way too high for a cutting diet. Decrease carbs, increase fat. Get rid of the wholegrain cereal and have eggs for breakfast.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:57 am 
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After revisiting this thread, I feel that robert might be right about maybe considering the split changes. Or maybe throw in some interval training on the arm day. You should focus on big multi-joint lifts like Squats, Deadlift, Press, Rows and Pull-ups, and all their variations.

robertscott wrote:
Also, 40% of your calories from carbs is way too high for a cutting diet. Decrease carbs, increase fat. Get rid of the wholegrain cereal and have eggs for breakfast.

But this I don't agree with you Robert. 40% of carbs is a good amount for fat loss. But, it works if you take them after workouts, not before them. Try to cycle your carbs. Very low carbs on rest days, and more carbs on the workout days. Best if most calories and carbs are taken right after working out. Carbs can help you recover and build muscle, especially with an intensive workout schedule like you have there.

But yeah, eggs for breakfast can never go wrong.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:25 am 
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Ok cheers for the replies guys.

I do think my diet needs some tweaking, as I feel like I'm plateauing. I'm having one egg currently for breakfast, so I might up my fats in breakfast and decrease the carbs slightly.

Definitely keen for some feedback on my routine, I know it does look like a lot, and I train hard when I'm doing it, I'm very aware of looking for the signs of over training, and to be honest I really don't feel them... but I really try focus on my form, so my weights aren't that super heavy, but I'm not that super strong.. so yeah. But thinking about changing up my routine to something like this - /Workouts/Workout4PPTS.html - and do it on Mon/Tue & Thu/Fri. I know I'm definitely doing a lot of exercises but my theory is that I'm looking for anaerobic exercise for weight loss, not a routine that is going to bring me lean mass gains (yet). I might change up to that 4 day split workout and bring in some HIIT on the bike.

As for the water, I know I drink a $h1t, I literally have a 1.25L bottle of water with me all day, and am constantly refilling it, as soon as I wake up until I go to sleep and even in my sleep! But my pee is still a light yellow, so I think its fine. I know for sure that I'd look leaner if I drank less water, but that doesn't bother me yet.

I'll spend some time putting together a 4 day split routine based on the above link and post here it later on and see what you guys think.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:03 am 
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I'm with Bob on this. Whole body training will give you more frequency per body part. Also focus on the money exercises like squats. Do them before leg press, not after. Lower carbs work better for fat loss that higher carbs but different people have different ideas and different experiences. Basically anything will would if you apply it. 80% of most people's fat loss results come from cutting out processed foods, cutting sugar, and adding vegetables. Also, eat more eggs and fish.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:55 am 
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Dub wrote:
But this I don't agree with you Robert. 40% of carbs is a good amount for fat loss.


40% carbs is the ratio most bodybuilders use for bulking...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:07 am 
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I'll try and address some of this:

ozzy wrote:
Ok cheers for the replies guys.

I do think my diet needs some tweaking, as I feel like I'm plateauing. I'm having one egg currently for breakfast, so I might up my fats in breakfast and decrease the carbs slightly.


ONE egg? Unless that's an ostrich egg, you can do better. If, like me, you struggle with eating a large, solid breakfast in the morning, you could always just drink a protein shake.

and cut down those carbs!

ozzy wrote:
Definitely keen for some feedback on my routine, I know it does look like a lot, and I train hard when I'm doing it, I'm very aware of looking for the signs of over training, and to be honest I really don't feel them...


Olympic athletes overtrain, and it's super rare. Somewhere along the line the internet became polluted with people thinking they are overtraining, but the reality of it is they are just eating like $h1t. Charles Poliquin, who's coached about a zillion Olympic medalists believes he's only ever seen overtraining a couple of times. Don't worry about it, just make sure you're eating properly.

ozzy wrote:
but I really try focus on my form, so my weights aren't that super heavy, but I'm not that super strong.. so yeah.


heavy is relative mate, don't worry, if you train properly you'll surprise yourself at how much stronger you're getting.

ozzy wrote:
I know I'm definitely doing a lot of exercises but my theory is that I'm looking for anaerobic exercise for weight loss, not a routine that is going to bring me lean mass gains (yet). I might change up to that 4 day split workout and bring in some HIIT on the bike.


that's not a bad theory, it's called circuit training and it works great for fat loss, but the effectiveness depends on the exercise selection. Big exercises like squats and pull ups will work, but a circuit with a load of different curls and shoulder raises won't cut it.

ozzy wrote:
As for the water, I know I drink a $h1t, I literally have a 1.25L bottle of water with me all day, and am constantly refilling it, as soon as I wake up until I go to sleep and even in my sleep! But my pee is still a light yellow, so I think its fine. I know for sure that I'd look leaner if I drank less water, but that doesn't bother me yet.


meh, if you're thirsty, then drink. Don't sweat the small stuff...

ozzy wrote:
I'll spend some time putting together a 4 day split routine based on the above link and post here it later on and see what you guys think.


by all means, but remember that fat loss is 80% nutrition so you might want to give a bit more info on your diet too


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:09 am 
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robertscott wrote:
Dub wrote:
But this I don't agree with you Robert. 40% of carbs is a good amount for fat loss.


40% carbs is the ratio most bodybuilders use for bulking...


40% is the Zone diet. I think it's debatable to say "most bodybuilders" use that ratio for anything, but it's supposed to be a general purpose maintenance ratio. The actual amount is unimportant since everyone has different amounts that works for them, but in my opinion, cutting diets should be under 20% carbs with weekly refeeds of around 70-80% carbs. (see The Anabolic Diet) I don't agree with bulking diets in general. I think that all they do is build fat unless you take the right drugs. Once newbe gains are over, the average drug-free trainee gains about 2 lbs of muscle a year whether they bulk and cut or stay lean all the time. You might as well stay lean and at least look better.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:13 am 
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Ozzy, welcome!

You and I seem to have something in common: we both like frequent and long workouts. I do 4 days/week, hardly ever less than 60 minutes, and often 90 minutes or more. Most people here recommend against this, but they've also told me to find what works for me, and that's what works for me. I love moving the iron, it's as simple as that.

A great bit of wisdom you can pick up here is to build a foundation of strength. Many programs give you this by concentrating on one or two major lifts per day, then finishing the workout with accessories. You might try something along these lines, which is what I do now, and which is close to what you are doing now, but reflects some of the advice in the other replies:

Monday
IDEA: main lift is deadlift, accessories are for squat
MAIN LIFT: Deadlift 1x5
- Dumbbell squats or trap bar deadlifts
- Hip abduction, hip adduction, hip flexion
- Split squats
- Ab work (if you've got it in you)

Tuesday
IDEA: main lift is press, accessories are general back and lats
MAIN LIFT: Press 5x5 or 3x5 or 5/3/1 or whatever
- Barbell rows (volume) and dumbbell rows
- Chins, bb lat pullovers, lat pulldowns

Wednesday: Rest

Thursday
IDEA: main lift is squat, accessories are for deadlift
MAIN LIFT: Squat 5x5 or 3x5 or 5/3/1 or whatever
- Stiff leg deadlifts
- Leg curls, or if you are strong enough, Glute-ham raises (most beginners can't do these, I can't)
- Ab work

Thursday
IDEA: main lift is bench, accessories are for back, arms and shoulders
MAIN LIFT: Bench 5x5 or 3x5 or 5/3/1 or whatever
SECOND MAIN LIFT: Barbell rows for strength, 5x5 or 3x5 or 5/3/1 or whatever
- Circuit 1: Lying triceps extension, bicep curls, triceps cable pushdowns
- Circuit 2: Front Raise, Face pulls, lateral raise, lying external rotations

The final point is deload and overtraining. A deload prevents overtraining. However, I'm not sure what to tell you here. If you can tolerate 60+ minute workouts 4-5 days/week, you may also not need to deload for many weeks. The general wisdom here is deload a little before you think you need to, because it's better than facing a forced deload and loss of strength after over training.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:19 am 
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40:40:20 protein/carbs/fat is a fairly typical bodybuilder ratio. You're right that there's probably a lot of individual variation, some would go as high as 50% carbs. I foresee more people doing the high-fat bulk in years to come, which is what I personally like to do.

I think that ratio type dieting though will just drive you crazy. Same with calorie counting.

For a cut, I would just eat a little over 1g of protein per lb of bodyweight, keep my carbs to 100g or less, and let the fats take care of themselves by eating fatty cuts of meat and cooking everything in a butter/olive oil mix. Once weight loss started to plateau I'd start eating less fatty cuts of meat, and add a little fasted cardio.

And Stu, 2lbs of muscle in a year????????? That's VERY conservative, and I would say only applies to someone very near their genetic limit or in their *ahem* advanced years. I've consistently added between 10 and 14lbs a year for the last 3 years, and I did that drug free. I do, however, have good genetics for staying lean.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:21 am 
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Ken, no accessory work for your pressing muscles? Whyever not?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:28 am 
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robertscott wrote:
...And Stu, 2lbs of muscle in a year????????? That's VERY conservative, and I would say only applies to someone very near their genetic limit or in their *ahem* advanced years. I've consistently added between 10 and 14lbs a year for the last 3 years, and I did that drug free. I do, however, have good genetics for staying lean.


I would suggest that your gains qualify as newbie gains. Try doing that 20 years in a row. I'm talking about long term sustainable growth. After the first few years, anyone gaining more than 20 lbs/decade is genetically predisposed to gain muscle quickly and therefore not AVERAGE. Most bodybuilders are not AVERAGE, they are self selected fast gainers. I would rather see people take the longer view for sake of their health.

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Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:36 am 
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stuward wrote:
I would suggest that your gains qualify as newbie gains. Try doing that 20 years in a row. I'm talking about long term sustainable growth. After the first few years, anyone gaining more than 20 lbs/decade is genetically predisposed to gain muscle quickly and therefore not AVERAGE. Most bodybuilders are not AVERAGE, they are self selected fast gainers. I would rather see people take the longer view for sake of their health.


perhaps you are right about the newbie gains. Would they really last 3+ years? I hope so! Hopefully I've got another couple left in me.

I don't expect to be able to do that 20 years in a row, hence my comment about being near your genetic ceiling in my last post (if I did that I'd end up 420lbs), but I really don't think 20+ lbs of muscle in a decade is all that impressive. I'll get back to you in 5 more years and let you know how I did.

And I don't mean professional bodybuilders, I just mean folks in general.

But I definitely agree with you that a long, slow healthy bulk is the best choice for most. Too many people use the "I'm bulking" excuse to get fat, but we're getting slightly off topic now


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:25 am 
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robertscott wrote:
40% carbs is the ratio most bodybuilders use for bulking...

Dude, did you even read my post?

Okay, I admit it, I hate % and ratio counting on nutriotion, I like to be more individual, and use terms "High carb", "Low carb", and "medium carb". The difference between bulking muscle and losing fat isn't that huge. My point was the timing of those carbs. You can eat somewhere along 40% or high amount of carbs, but you do that after workout and if best, a bit fasted. Then days you wont be working out, you guessed it, low carb day. I believe more into carb cycling than "every day is the same -diet." No matter if most bodybuilders do that. Some use carb backloading and most likely intermittent fasting also. Some use ratios and percents. Carb backloading and IF are methods among these, and I think they should not be dismissed.

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