ExRx.net

Exercise Prescription on the Net
It is currently Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:34 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:49 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4283
yes, it's another thread by Bob about an obscure supplement no one's heard of...

I have trouble sleeping. Specifically, it seems like I have trouble winding down. Lying in bed some nights I actually feel kind of agitated. I blame cortisol. Here's some info I found:

Quote:
The effects of phosphatidylserine on endocrine response to moderate intensity exercise.
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2008. The University of Mississippi, University, MS, USA. Previous research has indicated that phosphatidylserine (PS) supplementation has the potential to attenuate the serum cortisol response to acute exercise stress. Equivocal findings suggest that this effect might be dose dependent. This study aimed to examine the influence of short-term supplementation with a moderate dose of PS (600 mg per day) on plasma concentrations of cortisol, lactate, growth hormone and testosterone before, during, and following moderate intensity exercise in healthy males. 10 healthy male subjects were assigned to ingest 600 mg PS or placebo per day for 10 days using a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover design. Serial venous blood samples were taken at rest, after a 15 minute moderate intensity exercise protocol on a cycle ergometer that consisted of five 3-minute incremental stages beginning at 65% and ending at 85% VO2 max, and during a 65 minute passive recovery. Plasma samples were assessed for cortisol, growth hormone, testosterone, lactate and testosterone to cortisol ratio for treatment (PS or placebo). Mean peak cortisol concentrations and area under the curve (AUC) were lower following PS when compared to placebo. PS increased AUC for testosterone to cortisol ratio when compared to placebo. PS and placebo supplementation had no effect on lactate or growth hormone levels. The findings suggest that PS is an effective supplement for combating exercise-induced stress and preventing the physiological deterioration that can accompany too much exercise. PS supplementation promotes a desired hormonal status for athletes by blunting increases in cortisol levels.


I put the sentence I am most interested in in bold.

Does anyone have an opinion on this supp? Or any other supposedly cortisol blocking supplement out there?

Thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:51 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4283
more info:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/42310 ... dylserine/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:14 am 
Offline
Powerlifting Ninja
Powerlifting Ninja

Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:36 am
Posts: 1022
robertscott wrote:
yes, it's another thread by Bob about an obscure supplement no one's heard of...
I have trouble sleeping. Specifically, it seems like I have trouble winding down. Lying in bed some nights I actually feel kind of agitated. I blame cortisol.


I question if your problem is cortisol.

However, if it is it tells you that your over doing something and need to cut back
.

Quote:
Here's some info I found:

Quote:
PS supplementation promotes a desired hormonal status for athletes by blunting increases in cortisol levels.


I put the sentence I am most interested in in bold.


Cortisol For Healing

You never want to completely shut down cortisol. Part of cortisol's job is to help heal you.

Excess Cortisol

However, when overtraining and/or overextending youself by not getting enough rest increases cortisol which creates problem.

ProActive Solution

The solution is DON'T overtrain. That is what Periodization is all about. Pushing yourself and then backing off an allowing recover to take place.

Being Introspective

Part of Periodization Training also revolves around knowing yourself. Pushing it on day when you know you can and backing off on days when things don't feel right.

So, Periodization Training is more than just calculating percentates, writing the number of sets and rep down and doing it no matter what.

Overtrained

However, at somepoint everyone overtrains/overextends themselves. When that happens you end up spiraling downward when you overtrain.

Spiraling downward means an increase in cortisol, decrease in testosterone levels, etc.

The Cure

The best solution is to cut back and give yourself time to recover.


Quote:
Does anyone have an opinion on this supp? Or any other supposedly cortisol blocking supplement out there?


I doubt this supplement is going to help you recover any faster.

The most effective solution is cut back, increase your rest and eat well.

Kenny Croxdale

_________________
Thanks TimD.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:05 pm 
Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 7489
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea
There are dozens of things that could be interfering with sleep. Caffeine, alcohol, breathing issues, anxiety, depression off the top of my head.

_________________
Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:14 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4283
thanks for the replies fellas

Kenny - it doesn't really seem to matter how I'm training, the sleep issue is always there. I do implement periodisation (although I'll admit I don't always deload when I should...) and all that kind of thing. Even if I take a month off, the sleep issue's still present.

Doc - yeah, I've tried eliminating caffeine, didn't help. I even tried drinking thsoe horrible malt drinks that are supposed to help you sleep. Surprisingly, they didn't work either. The breathing issues is a new one on me, but I don't think I have those.

The problem just seems to be a can't "switch off" my brain when I go to bed. I remember reading something by Dan John where he said the best athletes he worked with were the ones that could just kind of turn off when they went to bed, which helped them rest and recover. Well, I think I suck at turning off, and I was hoping that a cortisol blocking supp would fix that.

So, I take it the general consensus is that I should just not bother?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:46 am 
Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 7489
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea
Will it cost a fortune? You can use the internet to figure out if there are significant safety issues. Otherwise, why not give it a try?

_________________
Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:02 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4283
na it's not that expensive. I think I will give it a try.

I'll report back with my findings


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:37 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am
Posts: 3967
Melatonin can work for that type of sleep problem. Unwinding before you go to bed and maintaining a regular schedule helps as well. If none of that works, you should talk to your doctor about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:05 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4283
yeah I've considered melatonin, but I worry that if I supplement with it then my brain'll produce less of it in future which'll just lead to more problems.

it's actually a problem I've had my whole life, and I am pretty used to it, but I'm sure as I get older it'll only cause more problems


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:44 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
I used to have a big problem with it, and it effected my training and even health, started getting acne break outs, loss of appetite etc. Wasn't/isn't good.

One thing that really helped is thinking more about the couple of hours before I got to bed. I normally leave the gym at 10pm and my mind is buzzing. I realised I just wasn't "switching off" or getting any down time. Seems too simple, really. For example I like to read at night. I would come in from the gym with my mind very active from training and training clients then I would eat and kick back and read about training. Never really switching off from work. Then when I did wake up i'd struggle to get out my bed for the day job, would be tired all day, sometimes practically falling asleep whilst driving to the gym after work but, as soon as I started training people I would wake up. When it got to 10pm i would be more awake than I have been the whole day, and so the cycle continued.

That still happens sometimes, I got a serious bout of it this year already but, for the most part it's so much better. It's also not necessarily work you need to switch off from, it can be anything that's making your mind race i.e. personal/family issues. I try and stay away from anything work or training related when I get out the gym and I aim for some down time where I just think about nothing and do nothing before I go to bed.

One "aha" moment for me was that I could fall asleep easily on the couch but not in bed (I spent a few weeks just sleeping on the couch as a result!). That made me think about the difference between the 2. When i'm on the couch i'm normally consuming myself with nonsense, or nothing of any importance to my life.... So I was "switching off"...

btw I did try Z12. I found I woke up more alert but it didn't help falling asleep. I'm certain it's just because I never switch off, sometimes find it hard. That and, you need a routine. Don't go to bed at 10pm one night and 2 am the next, etc. Try and make it roughly the same time if possible.

In short, have a think about the last couple of hours before you go to your bed. This might be what's keeping you awake.

I've found recently that i'm genuinely tired about midnight now, something that's never happened. I'm also able to take naps - i'm sleeping within about 5 minutes of lying down. Also never been able to do that, normally when i'm awake, sleeping is the last thing I want to do but, since i've became more aware of the need for switching off/downtime, I'm more in tune with it and can do it easier.

Lastly, if you have a lot going on and are the type to just charge on with life and never really address things (as I am), then try starting a journal. I can't say Diary because I feel like a 12 year old girl. Journal sounds better. If your minds very active at night you may just have lots of sh*t on your mind. If that's the case, write it down.... I done this is a last resort and it's amazingly therapeutic.....

KPj

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:27 pm 
Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 7489
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea
Melatonin can help establish the timing of your sleep-wake cycle. Just take it at the same time every evening, say an hour or so before the time you think you should go to sleep.

There are also some ways doctors can help, if you can get to a doctor who cares.

_________________
Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:53 pm 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 pm
Posts: 4283
Kenny, so you got it under control in the end? That's good. I've had it all my life and it doesn't really seem to affect me all that much, but I'm sure it'll only get worse as I get older and my recovery abilities start to lessen.

I'm the exact same about being able to sleep on the couch! What's that all about? If I could fall asleep as easily in bed as I do on the couch then I'd be a happy man. Usually I'll be lying on the couch about to fall asleep and I'll think "Time for bed then Bob" and by the time I've gotten up and brushed my teeth etc, I'm wide awake again. Total nightmare.

Is Z12 melatonin? I bought some ZMA because I heard that helped you sleep. It didn't work, but it definitely gives me much more vivid dreams which is kinda cool.

The problem with establishing a routine is I don't really have a 9-5 lifestyle, so it's not so easy. I have to admit, it did make me chuckle slightly when you said you've kept a diary. I can just imagine what it was like. "Dear diary, hit a PR on my deadlift today..."

I think I should get back into reading. I go through phases but I'm sure if I got into the habit of even just 20 mins, half an hour a night would help (although it hasn't in the past, I read such exciting books!)

Andy - I worry a little bit that the doctor would prescribe some sort of sleeping pill. I have quite an addictive personality and I'm sure that after a while I'd convince myself I couldn't sleep without them, regardless of whether or not that was physically the case, and so I'd be stuck on them forever.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:23 am 
Offline
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:40 am
Posts: 3967
My wife didn't have any problems with melatonin.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:42 am 
Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 7489
Location: Kudjip, Papua New Guinea
WEll, there are other things that doctors, especially sleep specialists can do.

Why not just sleep on the couch? Brush your teeth right after you eat so you don't have to worry about it when you fall asleep. Then just hang out on the couch until you fall asleep, then don't worry about getting up to move to bed.

_________________
Our greatest fear should not be of failure, but of succeeding at things in life that don't really matter.--Francis Chan


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:08 am 
Offline
Deific Wizard of Sagacity
Deific Wizard of Sagacity

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:49 am
Posts: 3474
robertscott wrote:
Kenny, so you got it under control in the end? That's good. I've had it all my life and it doesn't really seem to affect me all that much, but I'm sure it'll only get worse as I get older and my recovery abilities start to lessen.


Pretty much. I think it's largely a habitual thing, at least with me, anyway. Sometimes I fall back into the same routine and end up getting hardly any sleep, then dealing with chronic fatigue. I know it's bad when my dad, probably the hardest working guy i've ever came across, lectures me about doing too much. I can quite easily get to that point where i'm TOO fatigued - so tired I can't sleep. I'm weary of the early signs now. My appetite and skin are the first to show it (I suspect the skin thing is a side effect of loss of appetite - Less food with less recovery time with the same amount of stress... Something's got to give...).

Also, all my life I've always been someone who went to my bed late. Therefore, i've never been the type to bounce out of bed, more like drag myself out of bed, then a double measure of coffee to bring me alive. I think this is what set the wheels in motion for it, to be honest. As I got older I added work, bills, and general grown-up-stress to the mix, and it's far from an ideal habit to be in.

I'm also quite sure a large part of being successful in life is down to your ability to get up in the morning. My dad has said this my whole life, "I don't care what you do, if you can't get out your bed in the morning, you won't be as successful as you could be." I think this is one common theme among anyone i've met or read about that's "successful" (I use quotes because we all have different definitions of success) - they get up early.

robertscott wrote:
I'm the exact same about being able to sleep on the couch! What's that all about? If I could fall asleep as easily in bed as I do on the couch then I'd be a happy man. Usually I'll be lying on the couch about to fall asleep and I'll think "Time for bed then Bob" and by the time I've gotten up and brushed my teeth etc, I'm wide awake again. Total nightmare.


I know! This was key for me. I did literally sleep on the couch for weeks as a short term fix. One thing I did notice is that after my "going to bed routine", I felt wide awake, so I done all this well before I actually went to bed. Plus what you're actually doing on the couch, or thinking about, it's almost always literally nothing. Nothing of any significance, anyway. When you get to bed you start thinking. If you're like me that's enough to keep you awake as I have a very active mind to the point where just sitting thinking can stimulate my mind more than TV or a book (not all books).

robertscott wrote:
Is Z12 melatonin? I bought some ZMA because I heard that helped you sleep. It didn't work, but it definitely gives me much more vivid dreams which is kinda cool.


Not sure what it is, I got it after reading positive reviews and i had free points on my account, the ingredients are, as listed on t-nation website,
4-amino-3-phenyl-butanoic acid HCL (PhGABA)
L-theanine
5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP)

robertscott wrote:
The problem with establishing a routine is I don't really have a 9-5 lifestyle, so it's not so easy. I have to admit, it did make me chuckle slightly when you said you've kept a diary. I can just imagine what it was like. "Dear diary, hit a PR on my deadlift today..."



If you can't get a set time that you go to bed, then just work on the last couple of hours before you go to bed, regardless of the time. I think the key is in learning to switch off and stay switched off....

LOL, on the diary, well, to use about the only credible argument i've seen for Yoga - If Dan John does it, then i'll give it a shot :la:

Definitely get back into reading. "reading is to the mind what exercise is to the body" - don't know who said this but I definitely never made it up myself. It's amazing. In the same sense that I feel good making myself stronger whilst most other people I know are wasting away on the couch watching TV, I get the same with reading. Most people don't read, they watch crap on TV and glance at tabloids to know what's going on in the world. I've developed a new fascination for History, too. It's amazing. School ruins history for you, they make it seem boring. Anyway, i'm going off subject...

KPj

_________________
Thanks TimD


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group