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 Post subject: Competition Trade-offs
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:13 pm 
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I'm beginning to see how unprepared I am for any kind of competition. To start getting ready for a November competition, my trainer had me do box squat and deficit dead both in the same day, working up to a max single.[1] I made a huge improvement in box squat, but look what it did to my score:

Exercise      Week 1   Week 2
------------------------------
Box Squat 255 270
Deficit Dead 345 315
------------------------------
Score 600 585


With only one day of heavy volume leg work, I kicked up my box squat by 15#, but burned myself out proving it, losing 30# on the deficit dead! I lost one point for every pound of improvement in box squat!

I'm beginning to think, how in the heck am I going to do 9 lifts in one day????

[1] The variations are used because the weights involved are lighter, easing me into the two-maxes-in-one-day idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:33 pm 
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KenDowns wrote:
I'm beginning to see how unprepared I am for any kind of competition. To start getting ready for a November competition, my trainer had me do box squat and deficit dead both in the same day, working up to a max single.[1] I made a huge improvement in box squat, but look what it did to my score:

Exercise      Week 1   Week 2
------------------------------
Box Squat 255 270
Deficit Dead 345 315
------------------------------
Score 600 585


With only one day of heavy volume leg work, I kicked up my box squat by 15#, but burned myself out proving it, losing 30# on the deficit dead! I lost one point for every pound of improvement in box squat!

I'm beginning to think, how in the heck am I going to do 9 lifts in one day????

[1] The variations are used because the weights involved are lighter, easing me into the two-maxes-in-one-day idea.


Squat/Deadlift Same Day

I am not a fan of squatting and deadlifting on the same day. Nor are most lifters.

Most lifter perform the squat on one day and the deadlift on another day.

The reason is you cannot effectively train you deadlift after a taxing squat session, as you found out.

The Trifecta

Hitting you best squat, bench press and deadlift on the same day is like picking the top three horses at the track. It is unlikely that is going to happen.

Not many lifter make all 9 attempts at a meet. If they do, the left something on the table.

Take Home Message

Have on day for squats and another for deadlifts.

Don't expect to make all 9 of your attempts.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The reason is you cannot effectively train you deadlift after a taxing squat session, as you found out.
Kenny Croxdale

I've noticed this also lately, and have been thinking about splitting the two in the summer when I get an extra workout day.
But what about front squats? Wouldn't they be better if you had to squat and deadlift on the same day? Front squats are more quad-dominant, even though they tax the core quite lots.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:57 am 
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Dub wrote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The reason is you cannot effectively train you deadlift after a taxing squat session, as you found out.
Kenny Croxdale

I've noticed this also lately, and have been thinking about splitting the two in the summer when I get an extra workout day.
But what about front squats? Wouldn't they be better if you had to squat and deadlift on the same day? Front squats are more quad-dominant, even though they tax the core quite lots.


Front Squats
Deadlift day means you deadlift first. Then perform squats (front, back, low bar, high bar, etc).

However, if you do squat after your deadlift, you need to make them light to moderate. That because you lower band and legs are toasted

Quater Squats

What you might consider is following deadlifts with quater squats. You can push quater squats.

Also, quater squats are more of auxiliary deadlift movement. That because in a deadlift the lift begins from a quater squat leg position.

Leg Press

Another quad movement you can perform after deadlifting is the leg press. The leg press is another great auxiliary exercise. As with quater squats, this helps you drive the weight off the floor in a deadlift.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:45 am 
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The point I was heading for is that training specifically for a competition is beginning to change my thinking. Things I now have to consider:

1) What kind of training prepares you for 9 lifts in a day? Although I have no competitive hopes beyond not bombing out, I'd still like to do my best. It's got to be counter productive to walk onto the platform having never done squats and deads on the same day.

2) Doing Stronglifts 5x5 and then 5/3/1 cannot provide the specific experience of 3 heavy singles on the three heaviest lifts, all in one day.

The specific thing I learned from only 2 lifting days was that going for broke on squat can cost you in points. All new stuff, am enjoying learning about this.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:45 am 
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OT:

I like light squatting after Deadlifts, seemes to keep me from tight hammies


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:19 pm 
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Quote:
KenDowns wrote:
The point I was heading for is that training specifically for a competition is beginning to change my thinking. Things I now have to consider:

1) What kind of training prepares you for 9 lifts in a day? Although I have no competitive hopes beyond not bombing out, I'd still like to do my best. It's got to be counter productive to walk onto the platform having never done squats and deads on the same day.


Training

The majority of powerlifters train their squat on one day and their deadlift on another day. They train the way right up to the meet.

In other words, they don't squat heavy and deadlift heavy on the same day.


Quote:
The specific thing I learned from only 2 lifting days was that going for broke on squat can cost you in points. All new stuff, am enjoying learning about this.


You should have learned that you need to seperate you squat and deadlift day.

At this point, I am not sure what you learned.

And I question what you trainer knows and how much experience he has on the platform.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Kenny, in preparing for competition, shouldn't you have some training days when you do all 3 lifts?

Ken isn't saying that TRAINING both lifts on the same day is a good idea, nor that his trainer says so. He's pointing out that hitting one of them hard keeps him from doing well on the other lift. He's worried that it will be hard to do well on both in competition.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Ken, one thing I didn't see in your original post is how long you waited between maxing your squat and your deficit deadlift. Unless you did the squat in the morning and the deadlift in the late afternoon/evening, then it's not really realistic. Going between the two, with just a couple hours of rest in between makes a world of difference than if you go 6 hours apart.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:33 pm 
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Khronos8 wrote:
Ken, one thing I didn't see in your original post is how long you waited between maxing your squat and your deficit deadlift. Unless you did the squat in the morning and the deadlift in the late afternoon/evening, then it's not really realistic. Going between the two, with just a couple hours of rest in between makes a world of difference than if you go 6 hours apart.


This is exactly what my trainer said today when I dropped by to play gym rat. He said there's a load of difference between 20 minutes rest and the 3 hours or so I'm likely to get at a meet.

As for not doing both lifts in one day, I don't believe he ever suggested that would be the new normal, it's a matter of having only one day/week with him and wanting to judge how quickly the leg volume day (which I call the wheelchair workout) will impact 1RM attempts. Will it bump me off the squat plateau or not?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:35 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
Kenny, in preparing for competition, shouldn't you have some training days when you do all 3 lifts?


Mock Meet

Are you talking about simulating a true meet day? If so, then you need to make it as close as possible to the real thing.

Saturday Morning

1) Get to the gym at 9 am so you can be there for the rules clinic.

2) 10 am is meet time. Let's say it actually starts on time and you in the first flight of two flights of lifters.

3) You start you warm up at 9:30 am. You finish your squats at about 11 am. Then the second flight starts and finishes about a little after 12:30 pm.

4) You begin your bench press warm ups at 12 noon for your 12:45 pm start. That because they have to get rid of the squat stands, set up the bench press and then get the paper work and judges in place.

5) You finish you bench press attempts abuot 1:45 pm. Then the second flight start theirs. The finish about let's say 2:45 pm.

They then have to get rid of the bench press and set up for the deadlift for a 3 pm start.

6) You start your deadlift warm ups at 2:30 pm for your 3 pm opener. That is 4 hours after your squat attempt. So, whatever you did in your squat shouldn't take too much off your deadlift.

All this occurs if everything runs on time and nothing goes wrong, which it never does.

Also, most likely they will have those enter the bench press only part of the meet. That means another flight, which pushes your deadlift start back to 4-4:30 pm...again, if everything goes right.


Quote:
Ken isn't saying that TRAINING both lifts on the same day is a good idea, nor that his trainer says so. He's pointing out that hitting one of them hard keeps him from doing well on the other lift. He's worried that it will be hard to do well on both in competition.
[/quote]

Ken did box squats, rested a little and then did his deadlifts...which constitutes training both lifts on one day.

In a meet, you squat and deadlift are hours apart.

His trainer had him do box squats and deficit deadlifts on the same day. Exactly, how does that simulate a real meet day event?

So, what is his trainer's real life experience?

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:52 am 
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Out of curiosity, what's the problem with deadlifting or squatting in a fatigued state, as long as technique is good? I'd say that load used on the second lift is definitely going to be lower than it would be if that lift was first but - kinda obvious, really - however as your work capacity increases it'll go up, even in a fatigued state. I would also say doing any of the big lifts in a fatigued state isn't for beginners.

I've done a couple of squat variations in one workout, or a squat followed by DL variation in one work out for years now. It's not often i've done squats after a DL variation but i've done the opposite many times. I've done things like Box Squats then Rack pulls.

Also, I've just recently finished following an 8-week program, focusing on deadlift, written by Josh Bryant (impressive background as a coach and a Powerlifter). I should mention I decided to do it because I didn't like the look of it and couldn't see where he was going with it. I couldn't believe how much fatigue it caused in the lower back. It had 3 deadlift variations in a row, the third variation being 3-inch deficit DL's (the "assistance" included bent over rows, shrugs, and GHR's). Day 2 had box squats followed by "dead" quarter squats, followed by front squats - I reckon your lower back doesn't know the difference between a box squat and a dead lift, in terms of stress. Anyway, in the first week, my lower back was so fatigued that I had to lay on a bench with my feet up between sets to let it drain. I instantly questioned whether I was conditioned enough to keep doing it (it was my first deadlift intense training since coming back from a hamstring tear). It was then I understood why the program started with such low percentages of your 1RM. However as the weeks went on I felt nothing in my lower back. It adapted quite significantly by just the second week. Granted, it's lost strength that i'm regaining (although i'm about 20lbs lighter), I put 15KG on my deadlift in 8 weeks.

It got me thinking about GPP, or, "work capacity", or whatever you want to call it. This definitely improved A LOT with me during that 8 weeks (I was actually physically sick after day 1 of week 1). Also, we all know the lower back can be a limiting factor in both squats and deadlifts so, why shy away from trying to both strengthen AND condition it?

I guess what i'm saying is, maybe the purpose, or one of the purposes, of doing the squats after deadlifts is to build conditioning in the lower back, or just conditioning in general. I think gpp/work capacity are probably quite overlooked when it comes to strength training. I "think", anyway....

KPj

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:38 am 
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KPj wrote:
Out of curiosity, what's the problem with deadlifting or squatting in a fatigued state, as long as technique is good? I'd say that load used on the second lift is definitely going to be lower than it would be if that lift was first but - kinda obvious, really - however as your work capacity increases it'll go up, even in a fatigued state. I would also say doing any of the big lifts in a fatigued state isn't for beginners.


Technique

I don't see much merit in using Competition Deadlift as a training exercise. Nor do I see using a Competition Squat or Bench Press as a training exercise.

I am a proponent of peforming the competition movements with heavy singles with load of 85% of 1RM (Repetition Max).

"Pole Valuting For Reps"

The irony is that powerlifting is the only sport that I can think of that used the competition lifts as training exercises.

You don't see pole valuters pole vaulting for 5-10 repetitions.

That is one of the biggest points that Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD in biomechanics and former powerlifter) made Bench Press More Now.

Olympic Lifters

This group is more akin to powerlifters. They perform mostly single reps with high loads.

In other words, they perform the lifts for technique. They don't use the competition lifts as trainng exercises.

Auxiliary Exercises

Olympic lifters use auxiliary exercises to strengthen the competition lifts...squats, deadlifts, presses, etc.

Westside Training

Simmons borrowed the same philosophy from Olympic lifters. Utilize auxiliary exercises to strengthen the powerlifts.

Fatigued State

I'd say the once fatigue sets in, even an elite athlete need to STOP.

Quote:
I've done a couple of squat variations in one workout, or a squat followed by DL variation in one work out for years now. It's not often i've done squats after a DL variation but i've done the opposite many times. I've done things like Box Squats then Rack pulls.


Squat Prior To Deadlifts

If you going to perform them in the same training session, this is the most logical approach.


Quote:
Also, I've just recently finished following an 8-week program, focusing on deadlift, written by Josh Bryant (impressive background as a coach and a Powerlifter). I should mention I decided to do it because I didn't like the look of it and couldn't see where he was going with it. I couldn't believe how much fatigue it caused in the lower back.


Josh Bryant

Bryant is one of the smarter guys in the game. Overall, I am impressed with his knowledge.

Bryant, as I, am a proponent of performing plyometrics as a means of increasing your powerlifts. He wrote a good article on it about a decade ago.


Quote:
It had 3 deadlift variations in a row, the third variation being 3-inch deficit DL's (the "assistance" included bent over rows, shrugs, and GHR's). Day 2 had box squats followed by "dead" quarter squats, followed by front squats - I reckon your lower back doesn't know the difference between a box squat and a dead lift, in terms of stress. Anyway, in the first week, my lower back was so fatigued that I had to lay on a bench with my feet up between sets to let it drain. I instantly questioned whether I was conditioned enough to keep doing it (it was my first deadlift intense training since coming back from a hamstring tear). It was then I understood why the program started with such low percentages of your 1RM. However as the weeks went on I felt nothing in my lower back. It adapted quite significantly by just the second week. Granted, it's lost strength that i'm regaining (although i'm about 20lbs lighter), I put 15KG on my deadlift in 8 weeks.


Low and High Volume Training

There appear to be two types of individuals. Those who respond well to low volume and others who respond to higher volume work.

So, what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

Casey Burgner

A case in point is Olympic lifter Casey Burgner. As per his father (Olympic lifting Coach Mike Burgner), Casey responds better to low volume training.

When Casey moved to the Olympic weightlifting camp in Colorado Springs, they put Casey on a high volume program. Casey's lifts dropped.


Quote:
It got me thinking about GPP, or, "work capacity", or whatever you want to call it. This definitely improved A LOT with me during that 8 weeks (I was actually physically sick after day 1 of week 1). Also, we all know the lower back can be a limiting factor in both squats and deadlifts so, why shy away from trying to both strengthen AND condition it?


GPP

GPP is another one of those things that make my head spin around 360 degrees and while speaking in tongues...just like in the movie the Exorcist.

GPP is overrated.

GPP does help to some extent with recovery. However, Non-Linear Periodization accomplished that while allowing you to become stronger.

Quote:
I guess what i'm saying is, maybe the purpose, or one of the purposes, of doing the squats after deadlifts is to build conditioning in the lower back, or just conditioning in general. I think gpp/work capacity are probably quite overlooked when it comes to strength training. I "think", anyway....


Squats After Deadlifts for Back Conditioning

I don't see much value in using a leg exercise for back conditioning. A better back-posterior chain movement would be a kettlebell swing.

The kettlebell swing is much more effecitve in allowing you to pump blood into the area for recovery. Performing the kettlebell swing after your deadlift workout will promote recovery.

Taking Out The Garbage

Blood delivers nutritent and also "takes out the garbage". Thus, some type of pumping movement helps with recovery.

There isn't much value in using squats for lower back conditioning. The lower back for the most part performs an isometric action...maintaining you in an upright position.

"Squat-Morning"

The exception to the rule is when you perform one of Ken's "Squat-Mornings" in which you break parallel twice. Once at the hip joint and the other by bending low enough with your lower back so it breaks parallel with the floor.

Now that is a Back Conditioner!

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:00 pm 
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@Kenny.

I suggest a do-over regarding the idea that doing two heavy lifts on a training day has any applicability to platform day.

At no time did my trainer endorse, suggest, imply, recommend, or otherwise cause it to be understood that training two heavy lift variations on the same day would, with respect to competition, provide insight, information, details, facts, data, implications, elaborations, derivations, or inferences.

With respect to any possible insight, information, details, facts, data, implications, elaborations, derivations, or inferences to be taken regarding competition day from doing two heavy lifts on a training day, I accept sole responsibility for such confusion.

My statements should not be taken as representing the opinions of exrx.net, its authors, forum members, advertisers, vendors, customers, or ancestral gods.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:03 am 
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