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 Post subject: squat question
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Ok, come here for help again because I cant get up the resolve to head to the powerlifting gym to get a critique. I recently videoed my squats and basically had an eye opening experience: from right above parallel down to the bottom of my squat I have significant pelvic tucking, where my pelvise rotate underneath me from just above parallel down to where my butt is about level with my ankles (more colloquially known as "butt-wink").

I've tried box squats and really concentrating on sitting back, keeping my arch, and spreading the floor. Still seems like, no matter what I do, I start to tuck right before I hit the box. Front squats seem to eliminate the tuck, but they rather paradoxically make my lower back hurt (!!).

stopping at parallel seems really weird; I've tried it with lighter weights and its MUCH harder to stop right at parallel than to go all the way into the hole, even if I pause at the bottom (for a really long time).

One of my main fears is that by squatting this way for the last 15 years I've build up a movement pattern that may be almost impossible to fix. And that it's one that will eventually lead to catastrophic lumbar issues.

To be clear, the pelvic rotation, right now, does not lead to pain. But I am very concerned about asymptomatic cumulative damage to my lumbar spine. Any advice would be very much appreciated. If I am consigned to front squats for the rest of my life... so be it, I'm sure I'll adjust eventually. Might take me another 15 years...


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Bill Desimone (Congruent Exercise) would have you believe that you should stop before you get to the butt wink point. He probably knows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e34h3VIjEj4

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:10 pm 
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Tony Gentilcore also wrote two articles around the "tucking under" -issue. Check it out.
http://www.tonygentilcore.com/blog/q-a- ... g-part-ii/

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:03 am 
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@ Stu- Watched the whole hour and a half of Bill DiSimone's talk. I dont know whether to think he's nuts or a genius. Certainly if you want to be the most safety concious you'll lift as he suggests, but... the best way not to get hit by a car is to stay in bed too.

@Dub- Thanks for the link. It has me thinking that I dont have sufficient anterior core activation. I did the rocking test and was able to get pretty far back without rounding, so I appear to have the hip flexability. Also, when I do a body weight or front squat, I can get low without tucking. Guess I need to work on my anterior core strength.

Or... I could just switch to front squats for a while. Who was it said "The best exercise for you is the one you're not doing."?


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:48 am 
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Khronos8 wrote:
@Dub- Thanks for the link. It has me thinking that I dont have sufficient anterior core activation. I did the rocking test and was able to get pretty far back without rounding, so I appear to have the hip flexability. Also, when I do a body weight or front squat, I can get low without tucking. Guess I need to work on my anterior core strength.
Or... I could just switch to front squats for a while. Who was it said "The best exercise for you is the one you're not doing."?

I personally think that Front Squats are way better for the core, especially the anterior core. You could try it out. Atleast it can't hurt you. I started doing Front Squats few weeks back and boy did I have trouble. It's a great exercise that'll work you quite differently than back squats.
You could also do both. Like Back squats as the main and Fronts as the assisting. One with intensity, other with volume. And go only to depths that keep your form good. Take a box with you if you want.

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:28 pm 
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What's the difference in load between your front squat and your back squat? And if you back squat with the same load as your front squat, what happens to your form?

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:27 pm 
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My back squat is much heavier than my front squat. I dont think I could even unrack my "working" back squat with front squat form.

Back squat "working weight" is 405-420 for sets of 5, feel the fatigue in my legs. (1RM around 500)

Front squat "working weight" right now is 225 for sets of 5, feel the fatigue in my upper and lower back. (1RM around 315).


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:55 am 
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I think you've answered your own question, really - Anterior core....

You eliminate the tuck with front squats so, what's the difference? In front squats your anterior core is forced to light up. I would nail the anterior core, do a phase or 2 with more focus on front squats*, and maybe throw in some more hip mobility, since it can never hurt anyway.

*i would only do the front squats if you can figure out why your lower back hurts. I'd suggest front box squats to see if maybe an anterior weight shift could be causing this. Some people round the upper back quite significantly on them yet don't realise it because they can keep their elbows up high enough for the bar to stay put. However, this position will put more strain on the lower back and shift your weight forward a little. On top of that, when setting up for front squats, think about setting your lats/pulling shoulder blades down before point your elbows up, I find it helps stop the upper back rounding that is often seen (in the same way that it helps the same issue in the deadlift).

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:06 am 
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Thanks KPj, I'd kind of come to the same conclusion re: front squats. I don't think I round my upper back, but don't really trust my own perceptions there. Will need to have somebody vid me before I can say conclusively what I do.

Going to give these a try (front squats) for a bit, see how it goes.


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:11 am 
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Khronos8 wrote:
@ Stu- Watched the whole hour and a half of Bill DiSimone's talk. I dont know whether to think he's nuts or a genius. Certainly if you want to be the most safety concious you'll lift as he suggests, but... the best way not to get hit by a car is to stay in bed too.


I'm 40 mins in, i'm going to go with nuts, so far. I like to listen to different perspectives as this is usually when I find some thought provoking questions. However, I may struggle to see the end of this video.

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:51 am 
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Whenever I come across somebody who has obviously considered carefully what they are proposing, but I still think it's insane, I always think of the following quote:

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct." -Niels Bohr


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:13 pm 
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"Nuts or genius"?
Neither. Well, more towards genius, but I'm biased. The audience actually decides.

I find once people get hurt squatting, or when they pass a certain age and feel more aches and pains, they become a lot more receptive to my material (on http://youtube.com/optimalex for a bunch of videos, https://www.facebook.com/CongruentExercise page for info on the manual).
And actually, it's not MY material...it's pretty straightforward anatomy and biomechanics. I just happen to apply it differently, which some find disturbing/challenging.

Stuward, where did you originally find it? And Kronoss8 and Kpj, good of you to give the material a try.
Bill DeSimone


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:43 pm 
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BillDeSimone wrote:
"Nuts or genius"?
Neither. Well, more towards genius, but I'm biased. The audience actually decides.

I find once people get hurt squatting, or when they pass a certain age and feel more aches and pains, they become a lot more receptive to my material (on You Tube .com/optimalex for a bunch of videos, Facebook CongruentExercise page for info on the manual).
And actually, it's not MY material...it's pretty straightforward anatomy and biomechanics. I just happen to apply it differently, which some find disturbing/challenging.

Stuward, where did you originally find it? And Kronoss8 and Kpj, good of you to give the material a try.
Bill DeSimone

Bill--Thanks for chiming in! Do you lurk here, or did you just pick up that there was a link?

Is there a way to get your ideas in text form? I live in a remote place, and have a very limited connection, so I can't get YouTube video (or any other kind for that matter), but I'm very interested. I'm one of those guys who has passed "a certain age", as you so kindly put it.

BTW, I just read the interview on Conditioning Research, which has piqued my interest in reading more of your ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:48 pm 
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Bill, I removed you from the "newly registered" group, so you can post links now. I also created HTML links in your post for the pages you referenced.


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 Post subject: Re: squat question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:31 am 
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BillDeSimone wrote:
And Kronoss8 and Kpj, good of you to give the material a try.
Bill DeSimone


Thanks for coming on and responding, automatic respect for how you have taken the not-so-constructive criticism.

I did watch the whole thing, just can't get on board with the the logic. However, there's more than one way to skin a cat. It was presented brilliantly, though, and definitely thought provoking.

KPj

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