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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:51 am 
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fitnesstrainer wrote:
There are several things one can do to eat more healthy:
1. eat more often
2. eat better foods
3. vary foods depending on time of the day and from day to day
4. drink more water


Eat More Often

That works at times. However, Intermittent Fasting appears to have a place, as well.

Kenny Croxdale

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:11 pm 
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fitnesstrainer wrote:
There are several things one can do to eat more healthy:
1. eat more often
2. eat better foods
3. vary foods depending on time of the day and from day to day
4. drink more water

1. There's no strong evidence to support "six meals a day" or any other fixed number of meals. Look at the success of many of the intermittent fasting schemes.

2. Define "better".

3. Are you talking about carb cycling?

4. That depends on how much a person is drinking now, and what their activity level is. There is no evidence for a certain amount of water per day, and danger in forcing more water than the body asks for through thirst.

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:01 pm 
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I don`t know why you guys dignify that kind of post with a response.

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:21 pm 
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I guess they feel sorry for Robsert S.


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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Robert S started the thread. I'm talking about fitnesstrainer's post.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:25 am 
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oh the irony

:cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:26 am 
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Oscar_Actuary wrote:
I guess they feel sorry for Robsert S.


who doesn't? I'm so lonely


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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:36 pm 
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stuward wrote:
I don`t know why you guys dignify that kind of post with a response.

It's not for Fitnesstrainer. It's for lurkers and newbies that may read it.

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:42 pm 
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stuward wrote:
Fred Hatfield always said that the period after a workout was to allow for growth hormones to do their stuff. Ingesting carbs in that period killed the effect. You have to try to find what works for you.


Growth hormone is heavily overestimated when it comes to it's effect on protein synthesis.

Protein synthesis, from what I understand, is heavily blunted with depleted glycogen. The same way fat oxidation is heavily increased with depleted glycogen (as in, your body isn't trying to store anything).


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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Kenny Croxdale wrote:
Nutrient Timing by Dr John Ivy

This is an excellent piece book. What I love about this book is it is cheap (about $10), short and easy to read. Ivy provides information on the reason's why you need a pre, peri (during) and post workout beverage...why it help with muscle growth and recovery.


...

However, the hammer (pre, peri and post workout) is much better.

Kenny Croxdale


I just ordered the book from Amazon.

What are your recommendations for pre, peri, and post workout nutrient form and composition? (I weigh 178lb). I am not sure how to qualify the intensity of my lifting sessions, but I get a strong feeling it is not close to people in this thread. I drink water during workout, which is probably not optimal...

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:25 am 
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emil3m wrote:
What are your recommendations for pre, peri, and post workout nutrient form and composition? (I weigh 178lb). I am not sure how to qualify the intensity of my lifting sessions, but I get a strong feeling it is not close to people in this thread. I drink water during workout, which is probably not optimal...

Just my 2 cents again. Personally, I think it's also about personal prefrence. And varying science. Also depends on your goals.

For only fat loss, I would only take a protein pre-workout (Somewhere along 20-30g, ½-1 hour before a workout), and start eating carbs either peri or post workout. The best window is within 4 hours after the workout. Bestest window is around 2 hours after the workout, but it's not that important. Protein should be in the post workout part also. A big meal in the workout window (so to speak) is preferred.

For optimal performance, carbs should be in the pre workout meal, peri workout meal and post workout meal. Protein atleast in pre and post. I would recommend the pre workout carbs somewhere around 20-100g, and protein the same 20-30g. (The carbs are from two sources, the smaller numbers are from John Meadows and bigger from Michael Colgan). Peri workout carbs are also recommended somewhere around 30-50g. Protein for peri-workout is also important. Somewhere around 15g.
Post workout amounts should be high. Again, there are different recommendations and aspects to look at, some sources recommend you to harnest carbs (30-200g) and protein (15-30g) almost directly (15min after) post workout . But once again, a high carbo and protein meal is recommended somewhere in the post workout window. Especially carb back-loading uses very high carb amounts on the feast at night (300-400g). There is no universal and simple answer.

Fasted training has been said to work alright too. Studies have shown that in lower intensities the strength levels don't suffer that much, but carbs pre workout will give you better performance.

Me? Right now my mix is the following:
Pre workout: 28g of Whey + 30-40g Oats + 5g of Creatine
Post workout: 28g of Whey + 30-40g Oats, usually another carbs source as well. Then a big meal within 2 hours.

I don't like to consume anything but water peri-workout. But I've been thinking of tryin periworkout carbs+protein on higher intensity days. Water is a must tho, whatever you do. Not enough water leads staight to worse performance. I recommend you to try different variations yourself. See what fits you and gets you results.

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:26 am 
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Dub wrote:
depends on your goals.


I'll try to give a sense of the goals:
I am not big boned. 7 weeks ago was at 194lb around 17% BF and felt nasty. Because of the narrow frame, JUST losing weight and looking like spagetti is not an option. This morning I was 177lb. Throughout the 7 weeks, the weight I lift is gradually increasing and heart hadles HIIT cardio better. BF% went down to 14.5-15%. Looking to get to 12% or even 10% if possible. Not really looking to have arms as huge as my legs, just a lean athletic musculature.


What drink specificlly do you have in mind for during workout? Soda, juice, or maybe some smart carb I'm not aware of... I prefer natural to supplement.

Do I drink it on top of water? Might become too much liquid between sets, no?

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:58 am 
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emil3m wrote:
Not really looking to have arms as huge as my legs, just a lean athletic musculature.
For rapid fat loss, I think it's better to be without pre and peri -workout carbs. But since you are looking for more of a lean and athletic body with smaller fat loss, all of the workout nutritions should benefit you somehow. Pre workout gives you better performance and progress, helps protein synthesis and prevents muscle mass destruction. Peri workout can have several benefits to recovery, performance and muscle hypertrophy. Post workout is good for recovery and hypertrophy.

Quote:
What drink specificlly do you have in mind for during workout? Soda, juice, or maybe some smart carb I'm not aware of... I prefer natural to supplement. Do I drink it on top of water? Might become too much liquid between sets, no?

Anything during workout with carbs AND protein should do the trick. Like water+whey+carb source. Wether it's oats, maltodextrin or other sugar source, like gatorade or juice for example. Some sport supplements would most likely be best, with both protein and carbs. Somewhere along 7-15g of protein and 15-30g of carbs. Depends on a lot of things again. If you want to lose fat, better keep it lower on carbs (15g). So it's not much. It's easy to mix into 400-500ml of water. Not too much liquid in an hour. Hydration is a very important aspect in optimal performance.

I stress this, peri workout nutrition isn't essential for your goals. It's a method to improve your performance. You can work out without consuming nutrients as well. For hypertrophy and recovery, it might help you. For a professional athlete this is more important, but a simple thing like workout nutrition can carry trough to a better performance, no matter who you are. You can test it yourself, have a carb+protein drink during some intensive workout. Does it work? You don't have to use it every workout. I was thinking to try it out on HIIT+bench day and on deadlift day. If it works, I'll continue.

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Dub wrote:
emil3m wrote:
Not really looking to have arms as huge as my legs, just a lean athletic musculature.
For rapid fat loss, I think it's better to be without pre and peri -workout carbs. But since you are looking for more of a lean and athletic body with smaller fat loss, all of the workout nutritions should benefit you somehow. Pre workout gives you better performance and progress, helps protein synthesis and prevents muscle mass destruction. Peri workout can have several benefits to recovery, performance and muscle hypertrophy. Post workout is good for recovery and hypertrophy.

Quote:
What drink specificlly do you have in mind for during workout? Soda, juice, or maybe some smart carb I'm not aware of... I prefer natural to supplement. Do I drink it on top of water? Might become too much liquid between sets, no?

Anything during workout with carbs AND protein should do the trick. Like water+whey+carb source. Wether it's oats, maltodextrin or other sugar source, like gatorade or juice for example. Some sport supplements would most likely be best, with both protein and carbs. Somewhere along 7-15g of protein and 15-30g of carbs. Depends on a lot of things again. If you want to lose fat, better keep it lower on carbs (15g). So it's not much. It's easy to mix into 400-500ml of water. Not too much liquid in an hour. Hydration is a very important aspect in optimal performance.

I stress this, peri workout nutrition isn't essential for your goals. It's a method to improve your performance. You can work out without consuming nutrients as well. For hypertrophy and recovery, it might help you. For a professional athlete this is more important, but a simple thing like workout nutrition can carry trough to a better performance, no matter who you are. You can test it yourself, have a carb+protein drink during some intensive workout. Does it work? You don't have to use it every workout. I was thinking to try it out on HIIT+bench day and on deadlift day. If it works, I'll continue.


Great stuff!

For protein pre, peri, and immediately post , we are talking only fast acting? (I like ON 100% natural whey).

I'm thinking 15g of carbs from cranberry juice (I have a plain run-of-the-mill cheap one, prob from concentrate, so it's likely to be just sugar) and 10g whey. I lift for about an hour, but find it hard to sip on less than 1000ml of water (sip after each set). does that have negative effects?

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 Post subject: Re: workout "window"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:04 pm 
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emil3m wrote:
For protein pre, peri, and immediately post , we are talking only fast acting? (I like ON 100% natural whey).

Not necessarily. Once again there be no one answer. In example, pre workout protein and carbs may come from a meal eaten 2-4 hours prior to exercise. That's good, no must to take anything else pre workout. But if you're into shakes, maybe Whey and everything fast absorbing is better in pre and peri-workout phases. Post workout is once again a bit trickier. Studies have pointed out that casein and slow-absorbing protein would be better than Whey since it digestes way slower and keeps the amino levels higher. BUT, if you have a post workout meal in the 1-4 hour range after the workout you get all the slow-absorbing carbs and protein you'll need. If you're into shakes, you could prefer casein. I just don't like to harvest all kinds of different supplements, so Whey is my choise. It's not a bad choise, Casein just might give tinksy tiny bit better results.

Quote:
I'm thinking 15g of carbs from cranberry juice (I have a plain run-of-the-mill cheap one, prob from concentrate, so it's likely to be just sugar) and 10g whey. I lift for about an hour, but find it hard to sip on less than 1000ml of water (sip after each set). does that have negative effects?

I just think it's all about what doesn't disturb your performance. If you want to sip that 1L of liquid in an hours workout and it doesn't bother your stomach or concentration, then do that. I'd recommend you to try that out. Don't sweat too much about these kind of things. Go by feel and test things yourself. There are different opinions, even different researches about the subject.

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