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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:42 am 
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Quote:
Monday - off
Tuesday - workout a (squat/bench/deadlift)
Wednesday - off / cardio?
Thursday - workout b (squat/press/power clean)
Friday - off
Saturday - workout a (squat/bench/deadlift)
Sunday - cardio?

rotate to b/a/b week after


What do you guys think?

Quote:
70kg 154 pounds
1.84m tall or 6 foot
Looking to do starting strength


How many calories should I be eating?
Looking to go on a high carb diet
I was thinking maybe 2600

Also, should I incorporate protein shakes into my everyday diet or only on exercise days?


Last edited by Ice on Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:59 am 
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Most good beginning routines are not specific for bodybuilding or for strength training. Strength is a foundation of bodybuilding. Some routines are targeted at people with one interest or the other, but the differences are small. Routines like Starting Strength and Stronglifts would be very appropriate for you.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:11 am 
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You'll probably need to join a gym, it doesn't look like you have the right equipment there to get big and strong.

You need a squat rack, a barbell, and lots of weight plates for that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:25 am 
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Are you having an off-season or are you playing right now? If so, how many days a week? There wouldn't be much sense to put something like endurance training (intervals) to your schedule if you already run like crazy on soccer practices all three days a week or more.

1) Diet
A: Lots of protein. From meat, dairy, eggs or other. Just plenty of it. Atleast 1-2g/kg of your weight daily.
B: Carbohydrates and fiber. Carbohydrates are needed around exercise. Consume them before an exercise and after an exercise. If the training periods are long, maybe even during exercise. Good sources are fiber-rich fruits and veggies, whole wheat and beans and legumes. Stay far from sugary and simple products like white bread or pasta or candy. Fiber is there to just keep your stomach healthy.
C: Hydration. Drink when exercising. Dehydration lowers performance huge amounts.

2) Resistance Training
A: Basic idea of every resistance training program: Big compound exercises. I recommend to revolve your workouts around these important moves and patterns: Squat (Any squat variation), Hips (Deadlift variations, glute work), Pull (Pull-ups, rows), Press (Like bench and other variations), Core (Planks, landmines, etc.).
B: You want to imrpove strength and speed? The Max effort work is your answer. The more force you produce, the more faster you will become. Simple. So atleast on the main compounds (listed on A), you could use 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps. Read the stickies, different programs etc. They all have the basic idea similar to this. (Stronglifts has 5x5, Starting strength has 3x5, Westside promotes heavy progression to 3,4 or 5RM...) Rest times between sets should be 2-5 minutes, depending on how you feel.
C: Accessorial work around the area you want to improve. May it be your hamstrings (RDL, Leg curls..), Back muscles (rows), shoulders (rear delts, lateral raises) or biceps. Just about anything.

3) Speed Work
If you still have time for actual speed training, I'd recommend short sprints. I mean very short sprints. Like 10-20m or more if you are a great sprinter. You shouldn't get exhausted on these. They are meant to work you max speed and acceleration, and nothing else. If you slow down during the sprint, it's more endurance training and not max speed. Something like 2 sets of 4 or 5 sprints with full rest (2-3 min) between every rep. Since you are a soccer player, I'd recommend to add different changes of directions to sprints (Like taking sidesteps then sprinting, or running and turning 90 degrees for a full sprint). Something like that. More thinking of the game aspect.

4) Interval Training
If you are on your off-season, then you could include High Intensity intervals along the way. They are the best to improve you intake of oxygen and general speed endurance. You do have to take intensive runs in your soccer games. But if you are training soccer several times a week, I wouldn't recommend intervals. In fact, you should be careful with speed work as well. These are very taxing to your body, and nothing hinders progress like fatique.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:30 am 
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Thanks for everyone who replied.

Jungledoc wrote:
Most good beginning routines are not specific for bodybuilding or for strength training. Strength is a foundation of bodybuilding. Some routines are targeted at people with one interest or the other, but the differences are small. Routines like Starting Strength and Stronglifts would be very appropriate for you.


How long do you think I should stick to these routines? Also, should I consider bulking up? (other people have suggested I gain weight but I'm not to sure)

robertscott wrote:
You'll probably need to join a gym, it doesn't look like you have the right equipment there to get big and strong.

You need a squat rack, a barbell, and lots of weight plates for that.


I thought so..

Dub wrote:
Are you having an off-season or are you playing right now? If so, how many days a week? There wouldn't be much sense to put something like endurance training (intervals) to your schedule if you already run like crazy on soccer practices all three days a week or more.

1) Diet
A: Lots of protein. From meat, dairy, eggs or other. Just plenty of it. Atleast 1-2g/kg of your weight daily.
B: Carbohydrates and fiber. Carbohydrates are needed around exercise. Consume them before an exercise and after an exercise. If the training periods are long, maybe even during exercise. Good sources are fiber-rich fruits and veggies, whole wheat and beans and legumes. Stay far from sugary and simple products like white bread or pasta or candy. Fiber is there to just keep your stomach healthy.
C: Hydration. Drink when exercising. Dehydration lowers performance huge amounts.

2) Resistance Training
A: Basic idea of every resistance training program: Big compound exercises. I recommend to revolve your workouts around these important moves and patterns: Squat (Any squat variation), Hips (Deadlift variations, glute work), Pull (Pull-ups, rows), Press (Like bench and other variations), Core (Planks, landmines, etc.).
B: You want to imrpove strength and speed? The Max effort work is your answer. The more force you produce, the more faster you will become. Simple. So atleast on the main compounds (listed on A), you could use 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps. Read the stickies, different programs etc. They all have the basic idea similar to this. (Stronglifts has 5x5, Starting strength has 3x5, Westside promotes heavy progression to 3,4 or 5RM...) Rest times between sets should be 2-5 minutes, depending on how you feel.
C: Accessorial work around the area you want to improve. May it be your hamstrings (RDL, Leg curls..), Back muscles (rows), shoulders (rear delts, lateral raises) or biceps. Just about anything.

3) Speed Work
If you still have time for actual speed training, I'd recommend short sprints. I mean very short sprints. Like 10-20m or more if you are a great sprinter. You shouldn't get exhausted on these. They are meant to work you max speed and acceleration, and nothing else. If you slow down during the sprint, it's more endurance training and not max speed. Something like 2 sets of 4 or 5 sprints with full rest (2-3 min) between every rep. Since you are a soccer player, I'd recommend to add different changes of directions to sprints (Like taking sidesteps then sprinting, or running and turning 90 degrees for a full sprint). Something like that. More thinking of the game aspect.

4) Interval Training
If you are on your off-season, then you could include High Intensity intervals along the way. They are the best to improve you intake of oxygen and general speed endurance. You do have to take intensive runs in your soccer games. But if you are training soccer several times a week, I wouldn't recommend intervals. In fact, you should be careful with speed work as well. These are very taxing to your body, and nothing hinders progress like fatique.


I play for a team that competes in tournaments throughout the year so we don't have an off-season. We usually have practice once a week and twice or thrice two weeks before tournaments -- Looks like I might have to do endurance training (intervals). I read a few articles about the creditably of interval training and a few people were saying it didn't work. Is this true?

1) Diet
A: Protein - I know you said 1-2/kg of your weight daily but do you have any specific guidelines? Also, would I be eating a lot of protein during days that I exercise or should I have the same amount all throughout the week? I'm not a huge fan of meat, dairy and eggs but I know I can get a protein from a few other sources though I don't know if it would be enough (I would have to calculate it to be sure) so should I consider protein shakes? Also, most of the people I know associate protein with bulking up so is this necessary or does everyone in-general need that amount?
B: Do you have any specific guidelines? (links maybe?)
C: I agree! Dehydration is definitely bad and I know I have to drink because last time I got dehydrated I ended up in hospital with a drip and I don't want that happening again!

2) Resistance Training
A: Ok.
B: Ok, what does RM mean? Also, what should the weights be -- should I go to the maximum that I can handle or light weights?
C: Hmm, so each day pick a different compound exercise and a few accessorial exercises?

3) Speed Work
I understand and I think this is the part that I have the most trouble with -- a couple of months ago, I tried sprint training where I would sprint for as long as I could and then stop and rest but what ended up happening was I was jogging when I should have been sprinting because my body kept going into endurance mode.

4) Interval Training
Hmm, I'll write this down as a secondary option (with speed training) -- to consider after I do my main training

Again, thank you to everyone that replied -- I appreciate it a lot.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:07 am 
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There's a lot of questions there. I'll take a stab at a couple.

Quote:
How long do you think I should stick to these routines? Also, should I consider bulking up? (other people have suggested I gain weight but I'm not to sure)


Bulking will not improve your game. Getting stronger will, as long as that's the limiting factor. You may have to keep working on strength indefinately, along with other fitness attributes.

Quote:
I play for a team that competes in tournaments throughout the year so we don't have an off-season. We usually have practice once a week and twice or thrice two weeks before tournaments --


This means that your cycle is shorter. Do your strength training so you have a 2 day gap or so between heavy workouts and game day so you're not sore when the game comes.

Quote:
Looks like I might have to do endurance training (intervals). I read a few articles about the creditably of interval training and a few people were saying it didn't work. Is this true?


Intervals work best, the higher the intensity, the better. Getting in some variety is also good, but when time is short, and it is for most of us, give priority to the intervals.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:33 am 
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Ice wrote:
How long do you think I should stick to these routines? Also, should I consider bulking up? (other people have suggested I gain weight but I'm not to sure)

This question wasn't meant for me, but I felt like answering. Soccer isn't the kind of game where you would need mass. So maybe bulking isn't necessary. You are about the same weight as I am (74kg), so it's not an obstacle for strength training either. Stick to a routine for atleast 12 weeks. That's what I consider the minimun. After 12 weeks you'll know if the program is working or not. It doesn't mean you can't change the exercises inside, but the methods and movements should remain the same.


Dub wrote:
I play for a team that competes in tournaments throughout the year so we don't have an off-season. We usually have practice once a week and twice or thrice two weeks before tournaments -- Looks like I might have to do endurance training (intervals). I read a few articles about the creditably of interval training and a few people were saying it didn't work. Is this true?
What else could you do for endurance? Distance running only teaches your body to handle long distances, when it comes to higher intensities, it's rather useless. Intervals (either aerobic or anaerobic, I prefer the latter) develop the energy systems of your body. They can create, and regenerate energy faster, and your intake on oxygen for example might get better, and your body handles lactate better. Soccer might not be the best example, but also in soccer you are constantly doing intervals. Not one soccer game is steady-pace running from end to end. Not one.
Okay, fair enough. Aerobic lower intensity exercise has it's marks, but it's more in general health and well-being of a normal person. For athletes and sports I'd recommend higher intensity, aka interval training.

Quote:
1) Diet
A: Protein - I know you said 1-2/kg of your weight daily but do you have any specific guidelines? Also, would I be eating a lot of protein during days that I exercise or should I have the same amount all throughout the week? I'm not a huge fan of meat, dairy and eggs but I know I can get a protein from a few other sources though I don't know if it would be enough (I would have to calculate it to be sure) so should I consider protein shakes? Also, most of the people I know associate protein with bulking up so is this necessary or does everyone in-general need that amount?

Actually no, I can't say any more specific guidelines. Protein intake is a very complex matter, and if you look around, there are different suggestions everywhere. Also it's also dependant of your goals. In this case it's strength and maybe a little bulking. You do a lot of exercising, so you need more protein. Strength training always needs heaps of protein. I would suggest somewhere along the lines of 1.5-2g of protein per kg of bodyweight. If you can't eat that much, no stress. There are very controversial material, many saying you can get along just fine with 0.75-1g/kg amounts. I would recommend eating about the same amount daily.

Protein shakes are good. Almost everyone here on this forum most likely uses protein supplements every now and then. Protein is important for building and repairing muscle and getting you recovered after working out. If you want to improve the performance, I would suggest you to consume protein in every meal, but especially pre and post-workout.

Quote:
B: Do you have any specific guidelines? (links maybe?)

No, I don't. Again. It's not simple. People have different methods on carbohydrates and they all seem to work if you do it correctly. Some people (like me) cycle carbs: Off-days are low carb (20-100g), workout days are higher carbs with somewhere along 100-250g of carbs depending on lots of things. It works. But some people get 40-60%(up to 350g and more) of their energy from carbs every day and they are as good as anyone. Usually these people eat far less fat. You got to find the balance for yourself. Read from the internet and test different methods. Be critical.

BUT since you want strength and enhanced performance, I once again recommend you to atleast consume carbs pre and post workout. If you are having a long exercise (more than an hour) I'd suggest to have some carbs+protein during the exercise as well. Post workout carbs are the most important here. They are the key to recovery, performance and muscle building.

Quote:
2) Resistance Training
B: Ok, what does RM mean? Also, what should the weights be -- should I go to the maximum that I can handle or light weights?
C: Hmm, so each day pick a different compound exercise and a few accessorial exercises?

RM is Relative Max. If something is 3RM, it's the heaviest weight you can handle for three reps without failing.
The weights depend. I recommend you to get heavy weights, but if you are new to weight training, I'd suggest to start with lighter weight and work on TECHNIQUE. Then build up. I wouldn't recommend maxing out every workout, but the weights should be close. Like having only one or two reps left in the tank (example: do exercise for 5 reps with weight you could do 6-8 reps). That's for the main lifts. Assisting exercises could be like 6-12 reps with lighter weight. A weight that you can handle atleast for 6-8 reps. No need to go to failure every workout.

C: Not necessarily. Once again, there are many options. You can split your workout through the week, or you can do a full-body routine 3-4 times a week. Full-body would consist of 4-6 exercises you would do (you can also cycle the heaviness of the exercises), or then you can do Upper body/lower body split, in which you would do the same workout twice or once a week, switching lower and upper body every other workout. The there's the style many of us do here in exrx: one or two main lifts per workout. Mine at the moment is four workout days split: Squats, Overhead Press, Deadlift, Bench Press. I would suggest you to keep the same exercise for atleast a couple of workouts, especially when you are new to weight training. I stress this again, it's important to learn the technique of the movement first.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:41 am 
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at 6 foot and 153lbs you really need to add some muscle.

Gotta learn how to eat


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:44 am 
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robertscott wrote:
at 6 foot and 153lbs you really need to add some muscle.
Gotta learn how to eat

That's your answer for everyone under 90kg. How many bulky soccer players you know?

Also as a side suggestion that popped into my mind. How are your strenght levels? Many people suggest on doing lots of bodyweight work before actual resistance training. But since you are an athlete of sort, I belive you can do some push-ups, squats and pull-ups on bodyweight?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:51 am 
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Dub wrote:
robertscott wrote:
at 6 foot and 153lbs you really need to add some muscle.
Gotta learn how to eat

That's your answer for everyone under 90kg. How many bulky soccer players you know?


I fail to see how having the muscular development of an Olson twin will help. You think another 15lbs of muscle will make him a worse athlete?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:56 am 
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robertscott wrote:
I fail to see how having the muscular development of an Olson twin will help. You think another 15lbs of muscle will make him a worse athlete?

Nah, it doesn't. But does he NEED more weight? Will his "Olsen twin" musclularity somehow stop him from being great at soccer? I can't really say it helps too much. More strenght helps. Not directly more muscle. That strength better increase along with the muscles, or the weight will infact hurt the performance.
Besides, there are near 70kg weight classes for bodybuilding AND powerlifting.

I'm just mad because I'm 74kg.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:08 am 
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Dub wrote:
robertscott wrote:
I fail to see how having the muscular development of an Olson twin will help. You think another 15lbs of muscle will make him a worse athlete?

Nah, it doesn't. But does he NEED more weight? Will his "Olsen twin" musclularity somehow stop him from being great at soccer? I can't really say it helps too much. More strength helps. Not directly more muscle. That strength better increase along with the muscles, or the weight will infact hurt the performance.


I didn't say weight, I said muscle, and yes, it will help. More muscle on the glutes/hamstrings = faster. Fast soccer player = better soccer player. Obviously it won't help his actual skill but it'll sure as hell help his athleticism.

I don't know what kind of muscle you think someone'll add that won't come with an increase in strength...

Dub wrote:
Besides, there are near 70kg weight classes for bodybuilding AND powerlifting.

I'm just mad because I'm 74kg.


not really too sure what point you're trying to make here but whatever revs your engine I guess


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:24 am 
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Dub wrote:
robertscott wrote:
at 6 foot and 153lbs you really need to add some muscle.
Gotta learn how to eat

That's your answer for everyone under 90kg. How many bulky soccer players you know?

Also as a side suggestion that popped into my mind. How are your strenght levels? Many people suggest on doing lots of bodyweight work before actual resistance training. But since you are an athlete of sort, I belive you can do some push-ups, squats and pull-ups on bodyweight?

I can do some push-ups though they're a bit shaky. I can do pull-ups but again I feel it's a bit of a strain. Squats are fine.

I had a huge post going with quotes and everything but I accidently closed the page. Most of it was saying "Ok" to what you guys had posted so I created a new post only replying to the questions.

Also, all of my questions are open to everyone!

Question: I know you said I should have protein in every meal but does that mean I can have protein shakes during days that I don't have exercise?

I've also added more questions in my main post.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:07 am 
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Ice wrote:
Monday - off
Tuesday - workout a (squat/bench/deadlift)
Wednesday - off / cardio?
Thursday - workout b (squat/press/power clean)
Friday - off
Saturday - workout a (squat/bench/deadlift)
Sunday - cardio?

rotate to b/a/b week after
Looking to do starting strength

Yeah I would say that's good. Starting Strength is a good program with pretty much the basic template and it's proven effective. Cardios are always optional. If you feel the need to go running, go run. But keep atleast one full rest day a week. That would be my limit. Remember to focus on the technique first, then the strength.

Quote:
How many calories should I be eating?
Looking to go on a high carb diet
I was thinking maybe 2600

That's alright, but you might need a bit more on workout/high activity days. Somewhere along 3000. More important part is what you eat. High carb is good, just put notice on the quality of carbs (Veggies, whole wheat, legumes etc.). Carbs are specifically important on the post-workout phase. Just remember that you also need lots of protein to build that muscle and strength.

Quote:
Also, should I incorporate protein shakes into my everyday diet or only on exercise days?

Optional. If you get enough protein from actual food, then good for you, no need. But if you feel like you need more protein, shakes are the easiest way to add up the macros. Some people do recommend protein supplements around workouts, but I still don't see it necessary if you eat right around the workouts. I would still recommend for you to get roughly the same amount of protein daily.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:49 am 
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Dub wrote:
Ice wrote:
Monday - off
Tuesday - workout a (squat/bench/deadlift)
Wednesday - off / cardio?
Thursday - workout b (squat/press/power clean)
Friday - off
Saturday - workout a (squat/bench/deadlift)
Sunday - cardio?

rotate to b/a/b week after
Looking to do starting strength

Yeah I would say that's good. Starting Strength is a good program with pretty much the basic template and it's proven effective. Cardios are always optional. If you feel the need to go running, go run. But keep atleast one full rest day a week. That would be my limit. Remember to focus on the technique first, then the strength.


Ok.

Dub wrote:
Ice wrote:
How many calories should I be eating?
Looking to go on a high carb diet
I was thinking maybe 2600

That's alright, but you might need a bit more on workout/high activity days. Somewhere along 3000. More important part is what you eat. High carb is good, just put notice on the quality of carbs (Veggies, whole wheat, legumes etc.). Carbs are specifically important on the post-workout phase. Just remember that you also need lots of protein to build that muscle and strength.


I'm finding it REALLY hard to get protein and carbs into my plan (to meet my calorie needs) because I'm trying to dodge meat and diary products since most come from animals which are given GM feed. I need about 1500 more calories to go. Looks like I'll have to get a lot of meals every 2-3 hours a day.

Dub wrote:
Ice wrote:
Also, should I incorporate protein shakes into my everyday diet or only on exercise days?

Optional. If you get enough protein from actual food, then good for you, no need. But if you feel like you need more protein, shakes are the easiest way to add up the macros. Some people do recommend protein supplements around workouts, but I still don't see it necessary if you eat right around the workouts. I would still recommend for you to get roughly the same amount of protein daily.


Ok, thanks.


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