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 Post subject: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:36 pm 
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I have been doing an Upper/Lower split 4 times a week (thanks Robert!).
UpperA - LowerA (heavy squat) - rest - UpperB - LowerB (heavy Deadlift)
Unfortunately HIIT cardio has been eliminated as my legs are killing me and I sometimes do abs on my days off.

Can you guys go more in depth regarding structuring the leg day? This time I am looking more to learn how to fish as opposed to being served a meal.

Some of my questions:
Regular deadlifts are listed as a lower back exercise--that's a bit confusing. Is it ok to perform a DL variation on the heavy day or stick to the original? Is there a variation that you prefer? How do I structure supplemental leg work around either of the heavy lifts? I really want to hit hams and quads in an equal manner. Is it enough to perform DL/Squats only once a week while I bench twice a week?

I do not have access to a leg extension/curl apparatus, but do have a low pulley and will buy ankle cuffs.

Thanks all!

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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:55 pm 
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have a wide open mind
everything is flexible
you dont have to do "heavy" each time with both
you dont have to do the same volume week after week.

Possibility:

Heavy Squats (lower volume)
Upper
Lighter Deads (higher volume, or switch to Romanian Deadlift, or do hip Thrusts, etc)
Upper

Folowing week do high volume Squats .. and higer intensity Deads.

Or go for 3 months and focus on Deads Lifts, and just do maintenance work on quads.

Or go to ULU then LUL, 3 day/week, with maybe a 4th day of HIIT work, thne you can maintain heavy all Lowwer days, since every other week will be one Lower session. Idk, you got to see what works for you and adjust


Another idea is Full Body / off / Upper / off / Heavy Lower / Off / Off ....


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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:58 pm 
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supp leg work
Again indv requirements
First think about any imbalances or wekanesss keeping you from lifting more weight on the main lifts.
Good time for Single limb work
Uusally, I would do an antagonistic movement (like Good Morning on Squat day). And I would keep it lighter and do 40-50 reps.
I learn that way from 531.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:35 pm 
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emil3m wrote:
Unfortunately HIIT cardio has been eliminated as my legs are killing me and I sometimes do abs on my days off.
Had similar experiences, Maybe consider starting more slowly and in a more controlled manner. Like doing only one session for starters, or having the HIITs lower volume (only like 10 minutes), then progress up.

Quote:
Can you guys go more in depth regarding structuring the leg day? This time I am looking more to learn how to fish as opposed to being served a meal.

1) Main lifts are Cash.
Squats and Deadlifts are staples in leg workouts. No matter where you look, no matter what your goal is. But everything around that is based on you. What do you want to improve? Are you going for hypertrophy, explosiveness or strength etc. You get the point. There is a reason why these lifts are high in value. They involve the most muscles, which causes overall strength gains, ultimate fat loss and maximal testosterone production to say a few. They are also great for joints and posture when technique is correct.

2) No categorys.
Deadlifts shouldn't be listed as anything. Yes, they are a lower back exercise. BUT they work your whole body. It involves your whole Posterior chain from upper traps to calves. Also activation happens in anterior core, quads and arms. No wonder everyone Deadlifts. I personally love deadlifting and would never remove it from my program.
BUT it's still okay to have a DL variation in place of deadlifts. That's quite common actually. Once again, it usually depends on your goals. Deficit and snatch grip deadlifts are my favourite, but RDLs and Block pulls are also popular and effective.

3)Supplemental is personal. Do what you feel you need to do.
Right now my supplemental work around DL's and Squats include Glute work and Hamstring work. Why? Because that are the areas I need improvement in. Before it was Snatch-grip deadlifts and deficit deadlifts. Why? Because I needed to improve the lift-off on my deadlift. You probably see where I'm heading. You want to hit hammies and quads? Well hammer them then. I like to put similar accessorial work with main lifts together, but some people prefer different. What I meant was, that I'd work Quads on squat day and hammies on DL. Because it makes more sense to me and I like to give more rest to my muscles.
I like to have my supplement work high on volume (3-5 sets of 8-12 reps). But some exercises differ. I'd never do high volume Deadlifts, especially for supplement. More lower like 3-5 reps would be better.
You don't need no leg extension or flexion machines. There are several awesome exercises for quads and hamstrings using only free weight.

4) Same muscles are involved.
It's okay to Squat and Deadlift heavy only once a week. I wouldn't recommend more. They still use the same muscles and have quite similar function and movement. The loading and muscle firing is different. I'm not saying Squats are deadlifts or vice versa, but there are similarities. Also consider this: You DON'T have to bench twice a week. Consider doing some other pressing exercise on the other Upper day. Like overhead press. It's great for shoulders. Or do heavy pulls. It's quite the same logic as Squats/DL's. Different pressing variations have lots of similarities, but they emphasize different things.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:34 pm 
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If your goal is hypertrophy, you don't actually need to deadlift or squat at all - contrary to what is said.

Do they work? Yup. Do you have to do them to get humongous legs? No.

What are your goals?


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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:08 pm 
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you could do light squats for high reps on your heavy deadlift day, and RDLs or Good Mornings for reps on Squat day


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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:53 am 
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NightFaLL wrote:
If your goal is hypertrophy, you don't actually need to deadlift or squat at all - contrary to what is said.

Do they work? Yup. Do you have to do them to get humongous legs? No.

What are your goals?

It's true that you don't NEED to squat or Deadlift if you want hyperthrophy, but I would definately support the fact that those two moves build huge muscles.

Needless to say these exercise use the most muscles almost any exercise does, which means they are great for metabolic training, involving fat loss and hormonal levels. They are great for whole body growth.

Well, Deadlifts and hypertrophy are a little trickier, but I'd say they are one of the best trapezius builders among exercises. Squats are great for quads, especially when done on different methods like drop sets, high rep or similar. I would still keep Squats as the main exercise if I wanted to build huge legs, I would just naturally build some different non-squat accessorial work around it.

But granted, you can and will get huuuge without them as well. But many squat variations are even greater at building legs than actual squats.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:21 am 
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Oscar, maybe it's a personality thing or maybe it's me being relatively new to this, but implementing your suggestions would confuse the hell out of me.

Dub, thanks for clearing up the categorization and frequency questions.

NightFall, my legs are pretty big and muscular relative to my body. In fact very big (genetics?). However, when I started PT for my knees, it turned out that they are weak... I was very surprised.

My goal for upper body is hypertrophy. My goal for lower back and legs is strength. Is that weird?

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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:26 am 
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robertscott wrote:
you could do light squats for high reps on your heavy deadlift day, and RDLs or Good Mornings for reps on Squat day

That's doable.

Bent-knee Good Morning is my lower back exercise. I do it on both leg days. Reasonable weight, knees bent to minimize hams involvement. I can't seem to figure out how come on the morning after I sometimes feel the lower back and sometimes the glutes--what form related inconsistency can lead to that?

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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:41 am 
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I read somewhere a post by Jungledoc where he said that leg day should include unilateral exercises as well. If I add Lunges and Leg Curls on both days (to have balance at week's end), will that be too much?

Example
A: Squat, RDL, Lunge, Curl, Bent-knee GM (low back, moderate weight), Calf
B: Deadlift, Squat (high rep), Lunge, Curl, Bent-knee GM (low back, moderate weight), Calf

Btw, what should be the rep range on the light squat day?

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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:51 am 
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that looks fine. For the reps on light squat day, I'd do 8-12.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:47 pm 
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emil3m wrote:
I have been doing an Upper/Lower split 4 times a week (thanks Robert!).
UpperA - LowerA (heavy squat) - rest - UpperB - LowerB (heavy Deadlift)
Unfortunately HIIT cardio has been eliminated as my legs are killing me and I sometimes do abs on my days off.

Can you guys go more in depth regarding structuring the leg day? This time I am looking more to learn how to fish as opposed to being served a meal.

Some of my questions:
Regular deadlifts are listed as a lower back exercise--that's a bit confusing. Is it ok to perform a DL variation on the heavy day or stick to the original? Is there a variation that you prefer? How do I structure supplemental leg work around either of the heavy lifts? I really want to hit hams and quads in an equal manner. Is it enough to perform DL/Squats only once a week while I bench twice a week?

I do not have access to a leg extension/curl apparatus, but do have a low pulley and will buy ankle cuffs.

Thanks all!



I used to do only 5/3/1 for DL and Squat + abs and go home with a smile. That worked best for me but i started developing imbalances between right and left side. Now i follow the main move with single-leg dl and single-leg squats followed by hip abduction and glute bridges and loads of heavy ab work. Could do more but since its working great why should i?
I've tried volume stuff and leg isolation but never seen any results from them in squats or deads.


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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:34 am 
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emil3m wrote:
I read somewhere a post by Jungledoc where he said that leg day should include unilateral exercises as well.
I probably said that you should include unilateral leg work at some point in your program most of the time.

emil3m wrote:
If I add Lunges and Leg Curls on both days (to have balance at week's end), will that be too much?

Example
A: Squat, RDL, Lunge, Curl, Bent-knee GM (low back, moderate weight), Calf
B: Deadlift, Squat (high rep), Lunge, Curl, Bent-knee GM (low back, moderate weight), Calf

Btw, what should be the rep range on the light squat day?

I'm not a fan of leg curls, but I guess they're OK for some people. What are they for? Lunges in all their variations are great.

Why GMs twice a week? Calf?

Don't know if anything will be too much for you. Only you can determine that.

I like 10s for light squats. Don't know why, just do.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:08 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
I'm not a fan of leg curls, but I guess they're OK for some people. What are they for? Lunges in all their variations are great.
Why GMs twice a week? Calf?
I like 10s for light squats. Don't know why, just do.


The curls are for the hamstrings to balance off the lunges. The GM are for lower back. Any thoughts on substitutes? I don't have a roman chair for hyper-extensions..

Calf is just a simple calf raise and squats I'm doing 12rep sets on light day so I'm in your neighborhood.

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 Post subject: Re: Squats and Deadlifts
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:27 am 
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Leg curls is just the old isolation vs. bunch of muscles working together thing. You can train your hams other ways while working more.

I know what GMs are for. I was just asking why twice as much as other perfectly good lifts. Same question re calf, why both days?

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