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I'm going to restate that I don't believe gun control is an effective means to curb violence, but this is asinine. As I pointed out in the previous thread the actual number of random victims of homicide is so low that the time invested into properly mastering the use of a firearm for self-defense is an incredible waste of resources with almost no impact on positive outcomes. Events like the shootings in Colarado and Milwaukee are tragedies to be sure, but disarming law-abiding citizens or arming 70-year-old grandmothers is nothing more than a disproportionate emotional reaction.

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don't you know there ain't no devil
that's just god when he's drunk

The whole arguement is asinine. This is an emotional arguement where logic in not applicable. I'm not a little sheep unable to defend itself or its family. Other people can be sheep all they want. When the wolf comes knocking, and he will somewhere, other people can be slaughtered without a fight. It's okay Matt. You aren't going to convince them. There is a good chance that nothing violent will ever happen and I thank God for that. People have the choice to be victims. Let them be victims. I'm fortunate to live in a place where I can make a choice not to be a victim if I so choose.

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Thanks TimD.

I actually just saw an article TODAY about a 65-year-old women who stopped an armed robbery. ... Still, I'm not suggesting that everyone should be armed, merely that every sane, law-abiding adult should have the option. If you don't think it's worth your time and money, so be it. That's your choice. Personally, I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

And last month a 80 year old man shot his son while cleaning his gun.

There are a lot of people who are responsible with weapons but people make mistakes, and sometimes those mistakes can't be fixed.

Also having security systems is a huge deterrent, just locking your door can be enough. In the case of a random break in, thieves will break into which ever house is easiest. "Smart," thieves will scope out houses to see if there is anything worth while and the type of security systems. Keeping the curtains closed (preventing them from looking in) is also a big deterrent.

Locking your keys in your car is a mistake. Inadvertantly shooting someone is something else entirely. ... Accidental shootings don't just happen. They're the result of carelessness.

Also, it's probably worth mensioning that the number firearms related accidents have dropped dramatically over the years. Much of the credit for this belongs with groups like the NRA who've made a major effort to promote gun safety.

That seems to be the main point of your argument. The way I would do it is all that matters, because the way other people would do it, is the stupid crap we have now. Some idiot can always screw up anything you can think of.

I did misunderstand what you meant on the background checks. Yea, were in agreement on that.

As for gun control folks, it's a handful on the fringe. bills proposed under this administration 0. Bernie Sanders, most liberal guy in office by far, has said exactly nothing on the topic. People on blogs, and news programs are into gun control, that's about it.

All the sky is falling "they're going to take your guns" crap is nothing but a big scam by the industry to fleece gun owners. Every so often there is a scare, it drives up demand, a subsequent rise in prices, and then more price raising just because they can. Step 1 scare gun owners, step two sit back and make massive profits off the panic. Every time a Democrat get's elected, they're like cha-ching!!!!! A shooting, if it gets the blogosphere wackos stirred up enough cha-ching!!!!!

My position is no guns for careless idiots like that. If you can't clean a gun without killing someone, or go hunting without shooting your friend in the face, like a certain former VP, no guns for you. Same thing with a car, if you can't drive without swerving onto the sidewalk and running over pedestrians, no cars for you.

People talk about defense and this and that....But lets be honest, we know what really goes on. Gun enthusiasts like to by some cool new toys, and go play with them at the shooting range. Just like any hobby that way. Either that or collect them just to collect them. Some people like guns, some people like antique swords, and some people like baseball cards.

I agree with some of what you're saying, and I don't mean to be an alarmist, however I don't think it's a good idea to become too complacent about constitutional rights.

Me either.

Unfortunately most people have done exactly that. The right to bear arms is one the few ones left. Our reactionary rulers have taken a giant dump all over most of the rest of them. So it's good to be very pro-civil liberties in general. I know I certainly am.

"People talk about defense and this and that....But lets be honest, we know what really goes on. Gun enthusiasts like to by some cool new toys, and go play with them at the shooting range. Just like any hobby that way. Either that or collect them just to collect them. Some people like guns, some people like antique swords, and some people like baseball cards." - Ironman

People buy firearms for a variety of purposes. However, self defense is controvercial. That's probably why it's a popular topic of debate.

Now hang on just a second, I'm a pretty open minded guy and in light of the arguments i've read here and elsewhere, I've changed my mind of gun control. This is why having arguments is good, sometimes you get no-where with them and other times, well it just might influence some of the people listening or reading them.



Now I wish I lived in the US even more. Our government doesn't consider it necessary to own a fire-arm for self defence.

Canadians own just as many rifles and shotguns as Americans, just fewer hand guns. Both love to hunt and target shoot. It's not that the government considers it necessary to own a fire-arm for self defence, it's the Canadian public that has made that choice. I'm sure the American government would like to see fewer guns in civilian hands, it's the public that wants them. I think it's the crime rate that drives the demand, not the other way around.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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Thanks TimD

I live in both the U.S. and Israel and own a gun in Israel. I looked into owning a gun in Pennsylvania but haven't gotten one yet for a variety of reasons. The varying rules in various states make for a very confusing situation in the U.S. In Israel, it's simple and there are very few gun problems.

In Israel, if you have served in the military, live in Judea or Samaria, or are in a business (e.g. diamond selling) that puts you in danger, you may apply for gun ownership. The State checks your background, the doctor checks your physical and mental health, and an eye doctor checks your sight. If all goes well, you may then take an hour-long gun course and fire fifty bullets successfully. If that goes fine, you may buy one gun (only of type you trained on) and 50 bullets. You are expected to keep your gun locked at home if it's not on your person. You may not leave it unattended in a car ever. You can carry it any way you like (open or concealed) but must be able to present your license if asked (e.g. before entering a bus terminal where security personnel checks people and their bags). You can carry it almost everywhere with the exception of airports and government offices, which have storage lockers for that purpose. Schools are OK but sometimes you'll be asked to remove the clip and store it separately on your body. You may never leave your gun cocked (with a bullet in the chamber). You may go anywhere in the country with your firearm.

In Pennsylvania, you can own as many guns as you want and as much ammo as you desire. You can leave them lying around your house. You can store them in your car. But if you open carry, you will get bothered by police officers. You can't go in a bar or a restaurant that serves liquor with it. Nor can you enter a school with your gun. Government offices are off limits; however, you're on your own storage-wise. Walking around with a cocked gun is perfectly legal. You may not enter Delaware with your firearm unless you have gone through that state's much more stringent application process, which, even as a Pennsylvania licensee, you may not be able obtain.

In Israel, civilians carrying guns is common-place and no one worries about it. This is because of the application of rules that make sense and the lacks of ones that serve no purpose. Not only do many rules in Pennsylvania make no sense, every state is different and one needs to have an encyclopedic knowledge of various state's statutes in order to avoid committing a felony.

So in Israel semi-auto pistols must be carried with the chamber empty. What about revolvers?

Also, what are the rules for firearms that aren't intended for concealed carry. Are you still required to take a training course and repeat all the medical checks?

A revolver can be fully loaded but not cocked.

Assault rifles are usually owned by guys who served in the military (and still do as a reservist) and serve as a volunteer guard for small towns. This basically means that they usually have their rifles on them and if need be, they'd use them. So they already know what they're doing with the weapon and not in need of a course. Not sure but I would guess they also need check-ups every so often.

I personally carry a Glock 19. Bought it used and according to its serial number and engraving, it used to belong to a Boston police officer. I put a 33-round magazine in it when I travel on the road to Jerusalem. Thinking of trading it for a Glock 21.