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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:38 pm 
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I would love to know what you guys think overall. Some of the rules are not reinventing the wheel. Rule 8 has not been very popular on this forum.
Specifically, what is your take on rules 7 and 9?

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Blog/tabid/130/EntryId/600/Poliquins-Top-10-Carb-Intake-Rules-for-Optimal-Body-Composition.aspx

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:58 am 
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I would love to see some references and sources for these things. Many of these are facts, but still. I don't trust Poliquin too much since he's sometimes quite full of $h1t to say the least. I have stopped reading all these paleo/grain free/low carb articles and blogs since they are all just touting the same things. This is no exception. But to the point...

Fructose in high quantities is bad yes. Especially when you are trying to lose weight. Many people like to cut the fruit intake to only 1-3 whole fruits, especially on lower carb days. Some just avoid them in total. It's known to be nasty to your health and visceral fat, especially if processed like HFCS (High-fructose corn syrup). But after workout Fructose is alright. If I remember correctly, it absorbs way faster.

I think the "10-minutes after the workout" is a bit silly rule of thumb. There is no specific reasons given to the time frame, no quotes or no science. No nothing. And no wonder, it's pretty much BS. 10 Minutes? I mean come on. Your glycogen synthesis is high for over 24h hours after working out, and so is protein synthesis. The glycogen synthase (One of the enzymes responsible of increased glycogen synthesis) is most rapid for 1-3 hours after working out and slowing down after 4 hour mark all the way to 24 hours. I understand it's good to get some carbs in pretty quickly after working out to get the systems running, but I wouldn't say it's the best time to load huge amounts of carbos. A big meal within hours after working out will do the trick. Your insulin sensitivity won't drop after ten minutes. And even if it does, muscles can absorb everything after working out even without insulin.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:19 am 
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looks good to me. Poliquin is a beast. The guy's trained like a zillion Olympic medalists. The way it works is coaches train athletes, Poliquin trains the coaches. The guy's so far ahead of the curve it's unreal, always has been.

For some reason over the last few years it's become fashionable for chumps on internet forums to bash him. To be fair, some of his views on supplementation are a bit wild but again, the guy's so far ahead of the curve I'm pretty sure in years to come science'll catch up with it and everyone'll be like "so King Charles was right all along...". It's fashionable to hate him now, like Tom Cruise or ginger people.

The fructose thing is because it is stored preferentially in the liver, and the liver has limited capacity for storage, so in theory too much fructose'll be converted to fat. It's only really an issue if you are eating a TON of fruit, otherwise fill your boots. Seeing as these were his rules for body composition, I can understand what he means as if you are trying to keep your carbs low, you'd be better off limiting the fruit.

As for the ten minutes after working out, well I think that's just his way of getting you to load up on carbs as soon as possible after working out.

He may not have scientific evidence to support all his claims, but he does have an almost infinite number of success stories to back up his methods. Just look at the guy! He's well into his fifties and still looks stronger that 99% of guys in their twenties. You could do a whole lot worse than to do everything Poliquin says, despite the fact he's fallen out of favour with the internet chumps.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:40 am 
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Thanks guys! Both of you addressed 7 and 8, so I think you missed me asking about 7 and 9. I already knew 8 would not sit well as there was a thread about it.

So how about that 9? Any point to even delve into that or is that fairly marginal?


Btw, there are a ton of references at the bottom of the page.

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Last edited by emil3m on Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:44 am 
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I think it's fairly marginal but it's a big source of income for Poliquin. If you go to his online store, you'll probably find all these supplements.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:05 am 
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stuward wrote:
I think it's fairly marginal but it's a big source of income for Poliquin. If you go to his online store, you'll probably find all these supplements.

Good point. In his example, he is talking about aiding absorption of whole wheat bread. My usual post-workout shake is milk, banana, blueberries, and whey. Are these carbs "too slow" on their own and would need "assistance"?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:17 am 
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your post workout carbs are a bit fructose heavy, which as I mentioned before is used to restore liver glycogen, as opposed to muscle glycogen. It's probably not that big a deal but if you are worried about it add some maltodextrin or something to your shake. 40g or so would be about right.

As for point 9 on Poliquin's blog, well all those supplements he listed have numerous benefits so it couldn't hurt, but it probably won't kill you if you don't. I'm old school personally; my pre-workout is meat and veg, post-workout is meat and veg...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:35 am 
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The amount of fructose in "milk, banana, blueberries, and whey" is relatively trivial. I'd rather see this than maltodextrin just because of the micro-nutrients. I think it would be healthier in the long run. I don't think "fast" carbs are that important, otherwise, why would milk work so well?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:07 am 
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stuward wrote:
The amount of fructose in "milk, banana, blueberries, and whey" is relatively trivial. I'd rather see this than maltodextrin just because of the micro-nutrients. I think it would be healthier in the long run. I don't think "fast" carbs are that important, otherwise, why would milk work so well?


I agree, and was suggesting the maltodextrin in addition to the fruit, not as a substitute. I should've made that clearer in my post.

I think a lot of the time people get too hung up on macro nutrients, and totally neglect the micro nutrients. While I think that in terms of body composition, macro nutrients are the most important, the micro nutrients are the most important regarding health. After all, nothing'll ruin a physique faster than dying! That's why I always balk a little at the fruit-phobia (I don't know the real term for it) present in a lot of modern dieters.

As for "fast" carbs, well sugary carbs are better for replenishing muscle glycogen, but I'm pretty sure that after a meal or two your glycogen'll be refilled regardless of the GI of the carbs you're eating.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:34 am 
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I really like how most advice on this forum promotes natural eating. Very easy on the eyes so to speak.

Stu, you pointed out milk and it reminded me of something I read: milk causes an insulin spike. Is that a myth? Of course, it's all relative and the spike wouldn't be maltodextrin-like. I wonder whether it is significant enough to count or no-different than most foods.

Robert, you mentioned meat+veg pre and post. Is that enough carbs? I mean how many pounds of veg do you eat? :)
Having diabetes in the family, my gut instinct tells me that maltodextrin is not the best idea. It may be an irrational fear.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:51 am 
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emil3m wrote:
Robert, you mentioned meat+veg pre and post. Is that enough carbs? I mean how many pounds of veg do you eat? :)
Having diabetes in the family, my gut instinct tells me that maltodextrin is not the best idea. It may be an irrational fear.


Well I do a carb backloading diet, which basically means I eat low carb until after I've trained. Basically my set up is something like

-Protein shake for breakfast (40g of protein)
-Snack on meats and nuts/berries in afternoon, usually get 20 - 40g of protein, few g of carbs, nothing to worry about really
-pre-training meal of meat and veg, usually a couple of steaks (comes to 60 - 70 g of protein) and about a pound of broccoli. Broccoli is a low-carb dieters best friend. No carbs with this meal.
-post training meal of meat, veg and starchy carbs. This meal is always enormous; usually works out from 60 - 80 g of protein, with a TON of rice. I have no idea how many grams of carbs it is but it's a lot. On days where I've trained legs I usually wash it down with a lucozade (I know, I know...) for the extra carbs. This meal is so huge that for a good hour or so afterwards I just kind of lie there, rubbing my stomach and groaning.
-final meal before bed, usually something light like a protein bar, couple of bits of fruit, a cup or so of berries and a cup or so of nuts. 25g of protein in the bars I eat, dunno about carbs/cals

on days I don't train I usually fast for a few hours in the morning. I'm quite lucky in that my body seems to be pretty good at fasting and using fat for energy. I could get up at 7 and not need to eat anything til 3 quite easily. I also seem to do alright with low carb diets, some people would probably need more carbs than I eat.

Also once a week I have a ridiculous cheat day where my carbs go insane. It gets pretty decadent usually.

As for the maltodextrin, remember that after your workout your insulin sensitivity is the best it'll probably be all day, so the maltodextrin probably won't do you any harm. I'm not saying you need it necessarily, but I doubt it'll do you any damage. Don't go all carb-phobic on me now!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:57 am 
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emil3m wrote:
...Stu, you pointed out milk and it reminded me of something I read: milk causes an insulin spike. Is that a myth? Of course, it's all relative and the spike wouldn't be maltodextrin-like. I wonder whether it is significant enough to count or no-different than most foods...


Milk is relatively low GI compared with maltodextrine which is very high, however, the effect post workout seems to be more than the sum of the parts. This article covers the key points: http://stronglifts.com/milk-post-workou ... cle-gains/
Most of the studies were done on chocolate milk, but I think it was chosen to be a worst case. There's no reason white milk wouldn't work just as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:58 am 
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robertscott wrote:
...

this was pretty funny to read! and useful too!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:03 am 
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stuward wrote:
Milk is relatively low GI compared with maltodextrine which is very high, however, the effect post workout seems to be more than the sum of the parts. This article covers the key points: http://stronglifts.com/milk-post-workou ... cle-gains/
Most of the studies were done on chocolate milk, but I think it was chosen to be a worst case. There's no reason white milk wouldn't work just as well.


Damn that was a good read! I definitely feel stupid for sticking to fat-free organic milk now. Is this well accepted:

"So if you're on the lighter side and need to lose fat, you have 2 options:
Drink low fat milk: 1 quart has 370kcal, 2 cups 185kcal.
I recommend low fat milk over non fat milk because the difference in calories is insignificant. Low fat milk has only 90kcal more when you drink 1 quart and only 45kcal more when you drink 2 cups. Not a big deal.
On top of that, research shows that fattier milk causes more lean body mass. So drink low fat milk if you can't make whole milk fit in your diet. Remember to drink milk post workout only if you follow the 8 nutrition rules, milk has carbs."

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:39 am 
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One point I disagree on, is the value of low fat milk. To me, the best part of milk is the fat. I drink milk only when I can't get cream, butter or cheese. Low fat and skim milk are processed foods. The milk is dehydrated, defatted and then recombined to get the proper fat %. Whole milk is not. Except for the pateurization and homogenisation, it's still relatively unprocessed. If you are trying to lose fat, you should reduce the milk you eat, not go low/no fat. There is nothing special in milk you can't get from meat, fish, eggs and veg. If you're trying to gain muscle, which is the group that site is really aiming at, there is absolutely no point in low/no fat milk.

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