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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:11 pm 
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That sounded contradictory, go slow but do it quickly. I mean don't go straight back to the heavy loads you are used, to, but progress back to it over 2 or 3 weeks, something like that.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:24 pm 
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Jungledoc wrote:
Repeat 3,000 times or so. Then start adding weight.


I ordered a tripod to record myself as it would be hard to have a friend watch me for 3,000 reps :) Two tripods are probably an overkill as the front view is only useful for figuring out grip width.

I can't say much for my technique of benching. At some point few years ago I benched 3x6x275lb as my work sets. The technique was: unrack, lower, push up. I just climbed back up to 5x5x185lb. Now, it looks like I have to go back to bare bar and start counting back from 3,000 (god, I hope you're exaggerating!)

Maybe KPj has a magic solution of just 100 reps <fingers crossed>

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:28 pm 
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Oh, and do you use a ceiling cue? Or you just somehow feel that you're over the shoulder at lockout? Kind of like Oscar mentioned earlier.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:42 am 
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So... um.... "it depends?"....

I should first state that i still mull over technique points for pretty much every major lift and especially the bench press. So, out with the basic pointers, I don't have a solid-set-in-stone recommendation.

It never hurts to go back to basics, learn a new groove and slowly progress back to your heaviest weights. At the very worse, you'll learn loads. At the very best, you'll learn loads and lift more. I have recently reset my bench press technique and stripped the weight back and currently in the process of progressing back up to heavier weights. Slightly different from this thread, though - I've went flat footed as opposed to up on the toes like I prefer, or used to prefer, and brought my grip in a little. I don't know how it's going yet, sometimes I really, really like it and other times I need to stop myself from going back to my old way.

Anyway, back on topic.. Now for the long answer. I think think the path the bar will take depends on a few things, including,

1. Your set up. Look at that first graphic in this thread. Basically, elbows flared takes the path of least resistance with no moment arm, right? And it states we create a MA if we press or hold towards the face/neck, and create another towards the belly. Well, now imagine the graphic had a better arch in the upper back, with the guys bodyweight against the upper traps, as opposed to middle of the scap like it is just now. In this position, "no MA" would become "MA" and the "MA" towards the belly would become "no MA" - does that make sense?? So, whilst I think it's a great basic recommendation, I want to also point out that different lifters have different set ups and differing ability (or desire) to create an arch in the upper back, and the arch changes things....

2. Technique. I am a big fan of Rip but his recommendations also aren't set in stone. I'm sad enough to have this conversation saved, which is a discussion about westside barbell bar path vs metal militia bar path, and some very strong and well known lifters are contributing. The conclusion is basically, "try both, see what works best" however my point is some people with a great reputation recommend a straight bar path and others with a great reputation recommend purposely pressing in an arc. I've also seen the recommendation to "flare" the elbows at mid point on the way up, which is the same thing. Also at mid point we are at less risk of impingement and can get away with more of a flare to the elbows.

http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showth ... de-Barbell

3. Limb length. The length of your upper arms will influence how far down your chest/belly you bring the bar to. If your elbows come down to your belly button, then you will press much lower than most, and most likely will NEED to press in an arc towards the face with any decent load on the bar. Also, i've found people with longer arms in general press more towards the face and people with shorter arms press more in a straight line. In fact i've used the cue "push towards your feet" to try and counter the extreme arc that longer armed lifters fall into (they quite often have the problem of hitting the hooks on the way up because they fall into such a wild arc when they press).

Don't let this confuse you even more, the point is, "it depends". I think you will be best served by NOT trying to strictly comply to someone else's guidelines and find what works best for you. I have some recommendations for this, though :D

You noted that when you unrack the bar, your lockout at the start is different from your lock out after a rep. I actually think this is a flaw that could be cleaned up. So, here's how I find peoples ideal starting (and finishing) position. I stole this from an article on elitefts, i think.

Unrack an empty bar, make sure your shoulders etc are all set before you do. Let your scap sink in a little more. Slowly inch the weight towards your belly with your arms still locked out (think of a straight arm lat pull down motion). Keep doing this until you notably feel your lats "pinch" you - this is a reaction to stop the bar falling, but if you're set up right, you will feel the lats "grab hold" of you. At this point, move the bar back towards your face about 2 inches. This is your starting position, and I bet this is where you "finish" your reps. This is your starting position because this is where you have the stability from your lats. It'll differ between lifters but this is a great way to find it. Now you need to work on starting here at the beginning of every set because if you're not, you'll be wasting energy on that first rep.

I would then work on other things like pulling the bar down with your shoulder blades, pulling the bar apart, pushing yourself into the bench, not losing scap tightness between reps, and just let the bar path do what the bar path does... Some will press in an arc, some won't as much....

Hope that helps?

Also, life's been crazy the last few months but things should be calming down. I still read the forum regularly just not always got the time to write novels.

KPj

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:56 am 
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emil3m wrote:
I can definitely see why Rip writes "finding the groove pathway is the most frustrating for a lifter" and Tate also speak about the difficulty of fixing an incorrect motor pathway.


Finding the groove is a skill. This is where I love the westside approach of special exercises - variation without change. You need to "find the groove" in loads of variations of the same exercise. This makes you a more skilled lifter, and that makes you a better lifter. Try not to get frustrated and enjoy the process. One day, one set, or one rep, it'll just "click".

Always groove the bar, never let the bar groove you.

Remember strength training is a skill, and it's also a marathon rather than a sprint. Don't be in a rush to break bench press records, take the time to get it right and get it feeling right. This is one of the things I wish I listened to years ago.

KPj

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:26 am 
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KPj wrote:
1. In this position, "no MA" would become "MA" and the "MA" towards the belly would become "no MA" - does that make sense?? So, whilst I think it's a great basic recommendation, I want to also point out that different lifters have different set ups and differing ability (or desire) to create an arch in the upper back, and the arch changes things....

It absolutely does make sense! Rip also mentions an option not to arch, but doesn't explain. Can you elaborate on that option? I understand shortening the ROM for competitions. But I'm not looking to compete. I don't want to say no to hypertrophy and my understanding is that ROM is good for that. I do care about shoulder health though.
as a note: I realize that limiting myself to Squats, DL, Press, Bench, Row, and Chins will do much more for strength than hypertrophy. But I'd like to save some bodybuilding aspects if possible.
KPj wrote:
2. ...a discussion about westside barbell bar path vs metal militia bar path...
...a straight bar path and others with a great reputation recommend purposely pressing in an arc...

Great read there. So when you say "straight path" I don't suppose you mean straight over the shoulder. I'm guessing you mean straight over the touching point at bottom position. How would straight path work without minimizing MA by arching? This is assuming shoulders are tucked, feet planted and pushing, big breath of air, and core tight (am I missing anything?).
I tried looking for videos of Metal Militia and found a few that were not commentated and look questionable. Found a decent one for Westside setup (below). Any idea where I can get a better sense?

KPj wrote:
3. ...and people with shorter arms press more in a straight line...

I am 5'10" and don't think that my arms are long. That might be why my lockout is over the chest touching point, rather than initial lockout over the shoulder joint.
KPj wrote:
Don't let this confuse you even more, the point is, "it depends". I think you will be best served by NOT trying to strictly comply to someone else's guidelines and find what works best for you. I have some recommendations for this, though :D

Oh, I'd rather front load the confusion and do it once. Tate mentions that you gotta be very uncomfortable before you unrack the bar. That was a bit weird. And when I tried arching my legs back until I was on my toes, it felt like I'd never want to unrack a heavy bar that way. Feet planted solid and pushing feels good and comfortable (so it's bad?).
KPj wrote:
Unrack an empty bar, make sure your shoulders etc are all set before you do. Let your scap sink in a little more. Slowly inch the weight towards your belly with your arms still locked out (think of a straight arm lat pull down motion). Keep doing this until you notably feel your lats "pinch" you - this is a reaction to stop the bar falling, but if you're set up right, you will feel the lats "grab hold" of you. At this point, move the bar back towards your face about 2 inches. This is your starting position, and I bet this is where you "finish" your reps. This is your starting position because this is where you have the stability from your lats. It'll differ between lifters but this is a great way to find it. Now you need to work on starting here at the beginning of every set because if you're not, you'll be wasting energy on that first rep.

You are exactly correct! This is where my reps lock out. That point is not over the shoulder joint though. It's in front of it. Not sure by how much. At 2:45 at the above video the guy says "keep the weight on your triceps where it's supposed to be." This is very different to Rip. Is that your opinion as well?
KPj wrote:
I would then work on other things like pulling the bar down with your shoulder blades, pulling the bar apart, pushing yourself into the bench, not losing scap tightness between reps, and just let the bar path do what the bar path does... Some will press in an arc, some won't as much....

I actually read your pulling the bar down advice in other threads. Have been trying to do that ever since. I heard "pulling apart" before, can you explain the logic?
KPj wrote:
Hope that helps?
KPj

Helped heaps!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:23 am 
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emil3m wrote:
It absolutely does make sense! Rip also mentions an option not to arch, but doesn't explain. Can you elaborate on that option? I understand shortening the ROM for competitions. But I'm not looking to compete. I don't want to say no to hypertrophy and my understanding is that ROM is good for that. I do care about shoulder health though.
as a note: I realize that limiting myself to Squats, DL, Press, Bench, Row, and Chins will do much more for strength than hypertrophy. But I'd like to save some bodybuilding aspects if possible.


The arch can get complicated. I believe you need an arch in the upper back to keep your shoulders healthy when benching. This will also keep you stable and allow you to press more weight. Worth noting that quite often what is "healthy" will also allow you to lift more. So, the "healthy arch" i'm talking about is really just pulling your shoulder blades back and down, which as a side effect will cause a slight arch in the upper back (your rib cage will pop up). If you're not too fussed about breaking bench records or you don't want to compete, and you want to actually "feel" your pecs working, then this is all you need. Actually, this is all I teach people at first. Normally this position plus finding the right grip width and bringing the bar down to the right place (for that person) is more than enough for them to be thinking about initially. In practical terms, if you are struggling with these points just now, then thinking about anything else will overwhelm you and I would advise side lining any other thoughts right now until these initial cues feel as natural as "driving to work" (almost subconscious).

When you have all this down, then you have a whole bunch of other things you can bring to the table, like getting an even tighter arch and manipulating set up and foot position to maximise leg drive. These points are very individual and also goal dependant. The tighter you get, the more you will lift. Some people like to be flat footed, others up on toes, some have feet behind knees, some have feet way out in front, some have feet narrow, thighs gripping the bench, some have feet way out wide, others are somewhere in the middle. This isn't something I can help you with, it's down to you, really. I can help you find the best position but I can't tell you what the best position would be. Some of the positions I just listed will put far too much strain on places you shouldn't be straining. Others will make heavy weights feel lighter. Others will make light weights feel heavier. Honestly, this is the beauty of strength training, this is where you develop your own skill set. However, it's best to get the basics to feel natural first.

It's kind of like a beginner MMA fighter. You would teach him how to do a basic kick first before teaching him a spinning back kick. Extreme arching and leg drive is the bench press equivalent of a spinning back kick. Right now, I think your best mastering front and side kicking, it'll make learning the spinning back kick much easier, if you choose to do so, and you don't need to (this is where goals come in i.e. "why" you are benching).

emil3m wrote:
Great read there. So when you say "straight path" I don't suppose you mean straight over the shoulder. I'm guessing you mean straight over the touching point at bottom position. How would straight path work without minimizing MA by arching?


Yes that's right. Down and up in a straight line. When you arch, you essentially turn the flat bench press into a decline press so it may make sense to you if you think about MA's in terms of a decline bench. The only difference is, instead of laying on a declined bench, you create the decline by arching your upper back...... Make sense??

emil3m wrote:
I tried looking for videos of Metal Militia and found a few that were not commentated and look questionable. Found a decent one for Westside setup (below). Any idea where I can get a better sense?


Yeh, it's quite hard to find stuff on them. I don't have anything saved, but you get some interviews etc on bodybuilding.com and critical bench, i'm sure... Not seen any video tutorials or anything, just videos of competition lifts.

It's worth emphasising that metal militia and westside barbell create some of the strongest bench pressers in the word, mostly if not exclusively fully geared, too. It's way at the extreme end of the bench pressing spectrum. Still, though, it's good to learn from them, just keep in mind where they are coming from.

emil3m wrote:
Oh, I'd rather front load the confusion and do it once. Tate mentions that you gotta be very uncomfortable before you unrack the bar. That was a bit weird. And when I tried arching my legs back until I was on my toes, it felt like I'd never want to unrack a heavy bar that way. Feet planted solid and pushing feels good and comfortable (so it's bad?).


lol, sounds good. The uncomfortable thing is right. I've had a very well conditioned MMA fighter get out of breath benching an empty bar.... For maximum effort, tightness is key. The more you put into your set up the easier the weight will feel. It is a weird concept. I often remind people that they are lifting heavy things, not taking a warm bath. It's not supposed to be relaxing, ya know.

I think it's better to explain the tightness thing in the squat. Do you ever walk the weight out of the rack and it feels intimidatingly heavy? Then other times you walk it out and it feels lighter? I bet it's inconsistency in your set up. Far too many people unrack the weight any old way then walk it out, THEN they get tight, take a breath etc and start the lift. If you spend time getting mega tight under the bar before you unrack and walk it out, the weight will always feel lighter than if you stay loose. You need to turn your body into a concrete pillar. How do you make your muscles feel like concrete - contract everything! It's not easy and it's not comfortable but anything worth doing rarely is :smile:


emil3m wrote:
At 2:45 at the above video the guy says "keep the weight on your triceps where it's supposed to be." This is very different to Rip. Is that your opinion as well?


Well, in a word yes. What he's really saying is you shouldn't bench with a flat back, which I agree with. By not benching with a flat back and therefore, arching, you lessen shoulder rotation (more shoulder rotation = more pec) and by doing so along with tucked elbows, you emphasise the triceps.

To be clear, I don't see any value in a flat backed bench press. I always want an arch. At minimum just a slight arch created via tightening the shoulder blades, at most an extreme arch (or as extreme as you're capable of getting into) if you're all about lifting the maximum weight possible.

emil3m wrote:
I actually read your pulling the bar down advice in other threads. Have been trying to do that ever since. I heard "pulling apart" before, can you explain the logic?


Sure. Pulling the bar "down" with the shoulder blades, the way I teach this is when I have people to a seated cable row (or chest supported DB row). I put my fingers between their shoulder blades and cue them to focus completely on squeezing them together. I then tell them this is how you should lower the bar on bench press, or lower yourself to the ground on a push up - you "row" yourself down or row the bar down.

Pulling apart has different logic for the way down and the way up. On the way down it's for even more back tightness. It is essentially an isometric "band pull apart" (youtube this if you don't know what it is). Band pull aparts create the movement of pulling your shoulder blades together. So again it emphasises tightness.

To understand the way up, think of a tricep extension/push down/kick back - you straighten the elbow, right? Pulling the bar apart on the way up emphasises the need to straighten the elbow therefore use more tricep to help with the lift.

Pulling the bar apart is to the shoulder blades and triceps in benching what "pushing the knees out" is to the hips and hamstrings in a squat.

KPj

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:53 am 
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This is pure gold KPj. Perfectly clear. I just tried following your advice and concentrated on basic cues only. MUCH easier to arch when you don't have another 20 things on your mind.

The grip width I'm struggling with. I used to keep my index fingers in the quarter inch grooves on my BB (32" apart on mine). Too wide. I now set my pinky there which shaves 6" off the width. Forearms are not perfectly vertical when the bar is touching the chest, however anything even narrower is uncomfortable. Not trying to take a bath, just wondering if it's critical.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:54 am 
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emil3m wrote:
Not trying to take a bath, just wondering if it's critical.


lol, "not trying to take a bath", I like it.

I still mess around with grip myself, and have recently brought mine in closer. I "feel" more comfortable with the closer grip I have now but i'm stronger with a wider grip. Since I reckon my triceps are a weakness, I figure i'll stay with the closer grip for a few months anyway. It feels more comfortable and technically targets the triceps a little more, which should help bring up what I consider a weak link.

I've noticed you can't get quite as much from "pulling the bar apart" with a closer grip, or at least it feels like that.

I would say if a closer grip feels more comfortable, stick with that just now whilst you work everything else out. It's something you can play around with. It's worth noting that if you make small changes, things can feel awkward or you can feel weaker just because you're out your comfort zone. So, if you make a change like moving your grip in or out, it's worth running with it for at least a few weeks before you make a call on it.

KPj

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:07 am 
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Awesome. Thanks a lot for all that!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Most of the people doing bench are doing so lazily, and most programming for bench is done by lazy trainers. Nobody wants to take the time to actually coach it properly, and just as importantly, nobody wants to take the time and effort to do all the pulling necessary to earn benching. It doesn't represent a natural movement pattern (like a crunch or bicep curl) so it's done primarily for aesthetic reasons, and in an excessively internally rotated/flexion'd society it doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense.

If you're going to get under that bar, make sure you earned it. Benching is a reward for manning up and doing the exercises and movement patterns you know you should be doing but most of the time aren't.

As far as setting up a tripod to record yourself, how about a low-tech solution to charting your bar path? Chalk the bar up, and go through your reps. If you look in the mirror and see one singular, consistent line of chalk on your shirt, you know you're doing KPj and JungleDoc proud (I'd consider getting them a gift). If the chalk patterns look more like a ladder, you have my permission to draw a sad face with it, but not to put any weight on the bar.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:32 pm 
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JasonJones wrote:
As far as setting up a tripod to record yourself, how about a low-tech solution to charting your bar path? Chalk the bar up, and go through your reps. If you look in the mirror and see one singular, consistent line of chalk on your shirt, you know you're doing KPj and JungleDoc proud (I'd consider getting them a gift). If the chalk patterns look more like a ladder, you have my permission to draw a sad face with it, but not to put any weight on the bar.


This is pure, unadulterated genius! I'm so doing that.

I do have to say that, based on tactile feedback, I'm pretty decent at hitting my chest consistently. My issue was the lockout. Rip seems to say that I should lock out over the shoulder, which means an arc-like upwards movement is on order. Luckily, this thread helped me see that moving straight up and locking out a bit in front of the should is okay.

As far as earning the bench--I'm trying :) Really putting a lot of effort. But I can't say that being completely uncomfortable before unracking is my goal. Planting the feet so far back that only toes make contact with the rubber almost made my hamstring cramp. Having the knee at 90 degrees, however, actually feels solid. Interestingly, KPj actually prefers the former.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:49 pm 
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emil3m wrote:
As far as earning the bench--I'm trying :) Really putting a lot of effort. But I can't say that being completely uncomfortable before unracking is my goal. Planting the feet so far back that only toes make contact with the rubber almost made my hamstring cramp. Having the knee at 90 degrees, however, actually feels solid. Interestingly, KPj actually prefers the former.


FWIW I also prefer the on-the-toes positioning, and it's what I coach. The federation I compete in enforces a flat-foot position, so the only time i use it is when I'm coaching someone for competiton.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:28 am 
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I prefer to be up on the toes. I can lift more, can get tighter, find it easier to keep my a$$ on the bench and get a better arch when i'm up on the toes. However I would like to compete next year so i'm trying to get used to being flat footed (i've never heard of a PL federation in the UK that permits being up on the toes). If I forget the decrease in weight i'm lifting, I actually prefer it. When I go up on the toes and get to heaviest sets, I can't help but get as big an arch as I can. Takes a lot out of me. I'm weary about lifting like that too much although I've not had any negative effects so far. Going flat footed, it actually feels like my upper body is working, too lol. Still trying to figure it out though, some times I find a position where I get great leg drive even with a flat foot and the weight feels light but then other times it feels awkard and I feel weaker. I'm trying to use a slight pause on the chest, too. Between the flat feet, pause, and closer grip, benching is really humbling me just now.

KPj

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:23 am 
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I have been practicing and benching feels SO different now! Thanks for all the pointers everybody!

I'm still on a ABCX split (chest/back--legs--arms/delts/core). That will end soon as I mentioned in the OP. Few concerns I have:

1. Will these 6 exercises do anything for hypertrophy or is it strength alone? I am NOT going for powerlifter physique.. Athletic physique is what I'd like (lean mass and tight skin both in reasonable amounts).
2. AxBxAxx and then rotate will HALF the # of days per week I work out. I also read that doing core work or HIIT cardio on days off is a no-no. This prospect just seems weird an feels like the breaks are giant.
3. Related to (2). Since I'm rolling back all the weights in order to learn proper technique AND working out seldomly, wouldn't that reverse my--modest as they are--current muscle gains?

To explain why I'm concerned with hypertrophy and sufficient muscle stimulation (microtrauma?): 12 weeks ago, I was 195lb and 17.5%BF. Cleaned up my food intake and I am now 168lb and 12.5%BF. All throughout I was bodybuilding as I HATE the puny look and was going for composition change rather strict weight loss. I'm 5'10" and 28 yo.

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