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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:50 am 
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emil3m wrote:
1. Will these 6 exercises do anything for hypertrophy or is it strength alone? I am NOT going for powerlifter physique.. Athletic physique is what I'd like (lean mass and tight skin both in reasonable amounts).

Strength and hypetrophy will go hand-in-hand. There are no exercises that train only strength or only hypertrophy. Exercises do differ, but the effects they have a are relatively similar. After all, they are all same kind of muscle fibers. There is no such thing as a powerlifter physique. Powerlifter compete on several weight categories. There are powerlifter under 75kg and there are ones way over 120kg. You want to look lean. Many powerlifters (even over 100kg) are very lean. For the quest of getting leaner and bigger, these 6 exercises WILL give you the best results. Why? They use the most muscles, aka burn more fat. Also you work all the important and big muscles here.

Nutrition will make all the difference here. You need to eat big to get big. Simple. Bodyfat is quite simple to address via nutrition as well, you don't nececcarily need a specific program. Same goes with simple hypertrophy.


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2. AxBxAxx and then rotate will HALF the # of days per week I work out. I also read that doing core work or HIIT cardio on days off is a no-no. This prospect just seems weird an feels like the breaks are giant.
It's not a no-no. It's about you and your skills to recover. Doing HIIT twice a week and 531 4 times a week didn't work for me. My quads were on too much stress and always fatiqued and sore. However, speed work once a week and HIIT once a week suit my schedule quite well.

Doing core work has the same traits as well. You work your core on every lift you do, so you don't need too much of extra core work. Doing 2-3 sets 1-3 times a week is enough. I would still recommend to have atleast one complete off-day with no hardcore exercising.

Eat right, sleep well and take care of your body. When those things are in order, you can test what's good amount of work for you.

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3. Related to (2). Since I'm rolling back all the weights in order to learn proper technique AND working out seldomly, wouldn't that reverse my--modest as they are--current muscle gains?

It's a Marathon not a sprint.

There's no science that light resistance training would inhibit muscle gains. In fact, some studies say that you can get muscle volume gains with very light weights (30-50% of 1RM). Seldomly training? three times a week full-body IS NOT seldom. It's quite intense in my books. I work at this moment a body part 1-2 times a week. You work every body part three times a week. That's not seldom.

The first sentence has all there is to say. Would you rather be lifting and gaining strength and muscle for decades to come or wreck yourself with huger gains in with bad technique within the next few years? Maybe your technique work will slow down your strength gains, but they will improve you athletism (mobility, motor patterns) and health (in long term).

Besides, you'll learn quite quickly, light weight block with you won't most likely last more than a couple of weeks. After that, you work on technique on every warm up and work set, heavier and lighter intensities.



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To explain why I'm concerned with hypertrophy and sufficient muscle stimulation (microtrauma?): 12 weeks ago, I was 195lb and 17.5%BF. Cleaned up my food intake and I am now 168lb and 12.5%BF. All throughout I was bodybuilding as I HATE the puny look and was going for composition change rather strict weight loss. I'm 5'10" and 28 yo.

Nutrition is the most determening part here. You lost heaps of bodyfat in a very short time. Most likely muscle as well. Cleaning the eating habits usually lower the amount of calories consumed. Want more muscle? Eat more. Eat the right nutrients at the right time. Be patient. Muscle takes more time to build than fat. You'll get your composition change.

Nothing gives you better muscle stimulation than squatting and deadlifting. NOTHING.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:25 am 
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don't forget to add in accessory moves for the more "cosmetic" muscles:

lateral raises
rear delt flyes
biceps/triceps
calves

and some core work couldn't hurt either


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:20 am 
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Dub,
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1. Seldomly training? three times a week full-body IS NOT seldom. It's quite intense in my books. I work at this moment a body part 1-2 times a week. You work every body part three times a week. That's not seldom.
2. Besides, you'll learn quite quickly, light weight block with you won't most likely last more than a couple of weeks. After that, you work on technique on every warm up and work set, heavier and lighter intensities.
3. Nutrition is the most determening part here. You lost heaps of bodyfat in a very short time. Most likely muscle as well. Cleaning the eating habits usually lower the amount of calories consumed. Want more muscle? Eat more. Eat the right nutrients at the right time. Be patient. Muscle takes more time to build than fat. You'll get your composition change.
4. You want to look lean. Many powerlifters (even over 100kg) are very lean. For the quest of getting leaner and bigger, these 6 exercises WILL give you the best results. Why? They use the most muscles, aka burn more fat. Also you work all the important and big muscles here.
Nothing gives you better muscle stimulation than squatting and deadlifting. NOTHING.

1. That's good to know. because after 6/week, 3/week seemed like a vacation
2. I seem to have picked up bench, DL, and press quite decently (always improving). THE FREAKING SQUAT will not yield! The bar simply doesn't go up and down straight! My starting position is perfect--right over mid foot just like Rip shows. But what happens next is to ugly to put in writing. I have heard that it is hard to make a naked bar follow the right path. So maybe light weight is not the way to go about training this motor pathway?
3. I lost very little muscle I believe. Strength increased actually. But you are right--replacing ALL* grains with lots of fresh veggies did cut into the cal intake. (*other than pre-workout)
4. That last bit got my pumped! :)

Robert,
robertscott wrote:
don't forget to add in accessory moves for the more "cosmetic" muscles:

lateral raises
rear delt flyes
biceps/triceps
calves

and some core work couldn't hurt either

How about:
SQUAT-BENCH-ROW - Lat raises + Core 3x12 superset
DL-PRESS-CHIN - RD flyes + Core 3x12 superset

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:28 am 
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I'd like to fish out one point from my reply to Dub.

Is squat better learned with weight as opposed to a naked BB? Maybe waiting to progress is counter-productive here..
I'm trying to follow all the cues: thumbless grip as narrow as possible, shoulders tucked, feet wider than shoulder width, toes pointing out 30 degrees, bar on lower trap, elbows high, chest up, neck neutral, lower back arched and tight, hold a big breath.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:40 am 
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emil3m wrote:
Robert,
robertscott wrote:
don't forget to add in accessory moves for the more "cosmetic" muscles:

lateral raises
rear delt flyes
biceps/triceps
calves

and some core work couldn't hurt either

How about:
SQUAT-BENCH-ROW - Lat raises + Core 3x12 superset
DL-PRESS-CHIN - RD flyes + Core 3x12 superset


aye that'll work, couldn't hurt to throw in a biceps/triceps superset at the end too.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:08 am 
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emil3m wrote:
I'd like to fish out one point from my reply to Dub.

Is squat better learned with weight as opposed to a naked BB? Maybe waiting to progress is counter-productive here..
I'm trying to follow all the cues: thumbless grip as narrow as possible, shoulders tucked, feet wider than shoulder width, toes pointing out 30 degrees, bar on lower trap, elbows high, chest up, neck neutral, lower back arched and tight, hold a big breath.

What is the problem on your squat? I read something about the bar path, but couldn't figure.
You might want to see how your form changes when you add resistance. Also the weigth placement will alter the muscular response, so you might want to test front squats or goblet squats as well. Does the form deteriorate on those as well? If the problem is more unilateral, try UL movements as well (Like lunges, single leg squats or split squats).

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:26 am 
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Dub wrote:
What is the problem on your squat? I read something about the bar path, but couldn't figure.
You might want to see how your form changes when you add resistance. Also the weigth placement will alter the muscular response, so you might want to test front squats or goblet squats as well. Does the form deteriorate on those as well? If the problem is more unilateral, try UL movements as well (Like lunges, single leg squats or split squats).


The problem is that the bar does not follow a straight path down and up. Maybe on 1-2 reps out of 5 it relatively does.

All of these will be totally new to me. I have so many new cues in my head just from the 4 lifts Rip talks about, that I don't even want to delve into anything else right now :)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:34 am 
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emil3m wrote:
The problem is that the bar does not follow a straight path down and up. Maybe on 1-2 reps out of 5 it relatively does.

So where does it go? Does the bar fall forward? Lean back? Make a curve at some point? Does it the exactly same thing when added resistance?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:43 am 
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Dub wrote:
emil3m wrote:
The problem is that the bar does not follow a straight path down and up. Maybe on 1-2 reps out of 5 it relatively does.

So where does it go? Does the bar fall forward? Lean back? Make a curve at some point? Does it the exactly same thing when added resistance?


It falls forward and as a result the movement back up looks curvy. In one of the videos, Rip almost described it as incorporating a mini-short-ROM goodmorning on way up. Rip said that normally he would say drive ass up to generate hip drive, but for that guy he said think about raising the chest.

I could swear that my chest is up, but bar still falls forward. The problem must be in chest or lower back tension, right?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:04 pm 
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emil3m wrote:
It falls forward and as a result the movement back up looks curvy. In one of the videos, Rip almost described it as incorporating a mini-short-ROM goodmorning on way up. Rip said that normally he would say drive ass up to generate hip drive, but for that guy he said think about raising the chest.
I could swear that my chest is up, but bar still falls forward. The problem must be in chest or lower back tension, right?

The problem should be in muscle firing, core tightness and motor control. When under heavy loads, I have found that it's usually about weakness of the core and maybe the hip extensors (glutes and hammies). But in light load case, I doubt it's weakness. Does this happen with BW squats?

No certainties here, but I would recommend these options:
1) Squat to a box. Using a box will allow more leaning back, as the form is more related to just sitting back.
2) Squat only as low as the form stays good. Immediately when it starts to fall forward, get up.

You have lots going on your mind. Focus on only one thing at a time. Take one cue to squat on. Now it could be: "Nipples up!". Or "Drive the elbows". You have to have a high chest, and driving the elbows under and to the front will help with that. Also, keep your core tight.

You could also try front squats. Why? Because then the load is really more anterior, and you have to work to keep the body on a good posture. Marshall Johnson recommended getting bands to pull the bar forward, so you would have to work to keep your body not falling.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:13 pm 
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thanks Dub! will try. I just read the required box specs in the directory and think I have a chair at home that fits that height.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:24 am 
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Emil--that is a common issue with squats. Be patient with yourself--it'll improve. Bob's suggestion about front squats is good--goblet squats probably would also help.

Do you know the squatrx videos? Search for them on Youtube--they're very helpful. One of those is completely about this issue. He calls it "GMing out of the hole."

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:20 am 
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and how is 5/3/1 working for you, emil?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:33 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
Do you know the squatrx videos? Search for them on Youtube--they're very helpful. One of those is completely about this issue. He calls it "GMing out of the hole."


THIS NAILED IT! Thank you, Doc! I am pretty confident that this is the last "unfogivable" quirk to sort out before I can start progressing steadily.


ephs, I am not doing a 5/3/1. Look up Stuwards post regarding various 5x5 routines. I think it is in the "worth saving" forum. It's a great read. By trial and error, you can figure out what is the optimal way for you to warm up and how to go about your work sets. It's not alway the same for each exercise.

Personally, I am still doing 5x5 sets across for the main lifts. Primarily because weight is still reasonable. Together with the warmup sets, it's a nice volume of decent reps.

As weight will increase, so will my breaks between sets. If you keep in mind that the workout should not exceed 60 minutes, then time becomes a limiting resource. Allocating that resource would probably mean, less work reps at high intensity, which is OK as I read on this board.

I'd also consider reducinng the rest between warm up sets to a minimum. Or increasing the volume as warmup will no longer be practice, but just a function of getting blood flowing.

All in all, it's a puzzle: take 60 minutes and fit as much as you can by manipulating the variables.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:35 am 
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Equally important is that no one is willing to spend the time and energy to do all the necessary pull earn fitter.


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