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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:14 am 
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Based on everything I read, it looks like squats benefit from a slight heel while deads are better off without a heel at all. PL shoes are generally the flat ones, yet some list a 0.75" heel height. Oly shoes range from 0.75" to 1.5". Just as an example pendlays and adiPowers are 0.75" while do wins are 1.5".

Rip's low-back squat does not require vertical shins, so do you think a 0.75" heel is better for that variation?

I have minimis track pumas that are super flat. They are as light as a napkin. Obviously terrible support for the squat. However, do you think I can get away without spending money on a dedicated deadlift shoe and just use the pumas for it?

Lastly, should the standing press and the bent-over row even figure in this consideration or it really doesn't matter for these two?

Edit: shoe recommendations would be most welcome!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:21 am 
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Good grief! Why would you want specialized shoes? That's trivial stuff. Get a pair of Chuck Taylors, and don't worry about tiny differences in heel height! Or, if your gym allows it, lift barefoot.

I don't know what your pumas are, but if they are some of the shoes that are supposed to mimic barefoot training, they are probably fine. I'd still rather just go barefoot and not spend money for something that is supposed to be almost as good as barefoot.

And what do you mean by "terrible support for the squat"? The "support" you need for the squat is intimate contact with the floor.

Chucky Ts or skin. My recommendations.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:29 am 
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I work out at home. Skin would save a lot of cash (more fresh broccoli in the fridge).

So Rip going on and on about weightlifting shoes for squat stability and contact with the floor is just commercial gym advice?

I realize that in terms of heel to floor stiffness, barefoot is as good as it gets. What about stability though? I think people refer to it as lateral rolling when coming out of a squat..

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:05 pm 
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Just cause Rip goes on and on about something doesn't necessarily mean that it's important, or even significant to the ordinary trainee. (Ref his tirade on gripping a bar, not to maximize security of grip, but to minimize callous formation.)

What do you think that $300 lifting shoes would actually add to your lifting experience? How many pounds would they actually add to your squat?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:39 pm 
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Today was DL and press. Worked great barefoot!
You're totally right--not like I'm going for PR or anything.

adiPure have a solid enough sole for a commercial gym (my locals ones don't allow barefoot)
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:57 pm 
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From what I've seen Olympic lifters seem to prefer specialized lifting shoes with raised heels. However, this isn't generally the case with Powerlifters.

A raised heel might actually be a disadvantage on heavy back squats, since it shafts weight to the ball of the foot making it harder to drive through your heels.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:06 pm 
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One important consideration with lifting shoes is to avoid sneakers with soft, squishy, rounded soles like most basketball sneakers. I've also heard of people having sneaker blowouts.

Barefoot is fine for home training as long as the floor surface won't get slippery when your feet are sweaty.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:22 pm 
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I'm with the guys who don't think specialized shoes will help much.

I train in one of two ways:

- I warmup in socks. I'd go barefoot, but gym rules say no (for good reason - athlete's foot fungus!).

- I lift in either Converse Chuck Taylor Low-Tops or New Balance MT10 Trail Runners. Generally the latter, lately, as my Chuck Ts don't give me much grip on either pavement or grass, and I need some to push a prowler or not slip on the fake turf.

Those shoes ran me about $40 and about $80, IIRC. Both are flat-bottomed and give me excellent stability when I lift, and some useful anti-cut protection if I drop something on my foot. True story, I once took of a 45-pound plate without noticing I'd left a 25 on the bar . . . which fell on my foot from about bench press height. Hurt my foot a lot, swelling and bruising, but having shoes meant I wasn't cut which sped up my recovery a lot.

In any case, unless you've got money to burn or have a solid reason to go for expensive specialized footwear, I just wouldn't bother.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:07 pm 
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I have a good quality rubber mat at home and it did not feel slippery at all.

It seems that everybody is in consensus that barefoot is quite alright. I also felt quite comfortable as weight is still fairly manageable. As long as there are no detrimental health effects, I'll stick to skin.
Wonder if more weight on the bar will change anything, but time will answer that.


Edit: thanks everyone for saving me quite a bit of cash :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:21 am 
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emil3m wrote:
Based on everything I read, it looks like squats benefit from a slight heel while deads are better off without a heel at all. PL shoes are generally the flat ones, yet some list a 0.75" heel height. Oly shoes range from 0.75" to 1.5". Just as an example pendlays and adiPowers are 0.75" while do wins are 1.5".

Rip's low-back squat does not require vertical shins, so do you think a 0.75" heel is better for that variation?


Front Squat

Weightlifting Shoes a heel because it keeps you more in an upright position when front squatting.

In Olympic Lifting, you front squat the weight after cleaning it.

"Leather Like Sole"

Their "Leather Like Sole" allow you to side.

In performing Olympic Lifts, you're foot need to slide to the side in cleans and snatches.

Your front foot needs to slide in front a little when performing the jerk.

Bowling Shoe

A good Weightlifting shoe performs very similarly to a bowling shoe. It allows you to glide into position.

Olympic Lifting Platforms

For a Weightlifting Shoe or Bowling Shoe to be able to slide, you need the right kind of surface.

Plywood Platform

One of the best surfaces for weightlifting is a plywood surface. It allows you to slide to the side or forward.

Polyurathane Coating

Most weightlifting platforms have a plyuranthane coating. The reason is that it extend the lift of the platform. It does NOT make it any better.

Rubber Sole, Rubber Floor

Wearing a rubber sole shoe or lifting on a rubber floor means there is NO sliding after you jump with the weight.

Flypaper

You're foot sticks to the floor, like flypaper.

Purpose of Weightlifting Shoes

That is the purpose of weightlifting shoes and platform.


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I have minimis track pumas that are super flat. They are as light as a napkin. Obviously terrible support for the squat. However, do you think I can get away without spending money on a dedicated deadlift shoe and just use the pumas for it?


Track Shoes For Squats

As you stated, they are a "terrible" shoe for squatting.

The cushioning makes them a good running shoe but a poor squatting shoe, lifting in general.

Running In Sand

While an overexaggeration, it makes a point.

It is impossible to generate much force (strength/power) running in sand. When you drive your foot into the sand, it give out underneath you.

That means you produce less force, you run slower.

A running shoe's decreases the amount of force you generate. That one of the things that makes them a poor lifting shoe.

Running On Concrete

The harder the surface is the more force you generate. That one of the reasons the Chuck Taylor and PF Flyer shoes are a good squat shoe, lifting shoe.

Flat Sole Shoe

For a regular back squat, you don't need a heel.

The majority of great squatters squat in a flat sole shoe.

So, a weightlifting shoe for most individuals isn't necessary.


Quote:
Lastly, should the standing press and the bent-over row even figure in this consideration or it really doesn't matter for these two?


Again, the more stable the shoe, the more force you generate.

Kenny Croxdale

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Last edited by Kenny Croxdale on Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:26 am 
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And where does barefoot rank in your opinion? (for non-competitive strength and hypertrophy training)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:25 am 
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One of my clients really loves barefoot training. As with most, I encouraged her to warm up barefoot to help with some issues she was having (poor hip stability). She liked it more and more and started asking to do exercises barefoot. I just always said yes. Now she goes barefoot for everything other than bench press, so, does heavy squats, DL's, and single leg work barefoot. She's not the weakest, either, with a 130KG DL and 100KG Squat.

Wouldn't recommend that for most, though. Well, not straight away.

I do like to DL barefoot. I never gave it much thought until the client above started doing it but I actually really like it. I've also noticed a lot of PL in comps i've seen deadlifting in socks...

I like non restricting flat footwear for the most part. Converse being a good example. I don't like a heel lift.

KPj

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:51 am 
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emil3m wrote:
And where does barefoot rank in your opinion? (for non-competitive strength and hypertrophy training)


Dr Mel Siff/Supertraining

Supertraining (the book) is a brilliant piece of work by Dr Mel Siff and Yuri Verkhoshansky.

Siff basically said the the best "shoe" every designed was by God, the bare foot.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:57 am 
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Thanks all!

$250 looking good in my checking account!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:30 pm 
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emil3m wrote:
Thanks all!

$250 looking good in my checking account!


Lifting Large sells a deadlift slipper for $9. It's as close to barefoot as you can get. Most gyms allow it because it doesn't look like a Vibrams. Mine didn't quite fit me so I gave them to my son and someone stole them from him. I should buy some more.

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