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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Powerlifting Ninja
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This is another one of Bret Contreras' great training articles.

This one involves using Heavy Kettlebell Swings, Light Kettlebells Swings are not as effective.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... _deadlifts

This is my Abstract/Cliff Note of the Article

My View

Overall, my views are on in line with Contreras.

Squat Kettlebell Swings

I began performing the Heavy Hungarian Core Blaster/Kettlebell Swing last year. What I found was it immulated the squat when performed in squatting manner.

It blast the quads and glutes, while working the hamstrings and lower back.

Stiff Leg Deadlift Kettlebell Swings

This is performed by holding a dumbbell in each had standing up. Slightly bend the knees, then bend at the waist while swing the dumbbells back behind you.

Swinging them back, really works hamstrings and lower back, and glutes to some extent.

Again the dumbbells are in your hand, on the outside of your legs.

I agree with...


Contreras: Show Me Someone Who Can Swing Properly and I'll Show You Someone Who Can Squat, Deadlift, and Hip Thrust Properly

Think about the typical cues used by coaches during squats and deadlifts: "Sit back," "knees out," "chest up," "push through the heels," "squeeze the glutes," and "keep the neck in neutral."


My View

Heavy Deadlifts Destroy Your Body

I wrote and article on this back in 2001 based on how I stopped deadlifting and my deadlift went up.

The problem is the the lower back is quickly and easily overtrained with the deadlift.

That means, deadlift training need to be INfrequently performed (once every 10-21). The frequence of performing deadlifts is depend on you recovery ability.


Contreras: Heavy Ass Kettlebell Swings (HAKS) – An Incredible Deadlift and Olympic Lift Assistance Exercise

Best still, heavy swings don't destroy the body like maximal deadlifts do, so you can train them more frequently. In fact, you can put deadlifts on the backburner for a while and maintain your strength by doing heavy ass swings 2-3 times per week.


My View

I am NOT a proponent of Dynamic Deadlifts (load of 40-60% of 1 Repetition Max) as a means of increasing power output.

I am a huge advocate of Olympic Pulls as a means of increasing power output.

Research shows that Olympic pull produce as high as 52.6 watts/kg compared to 12 watts/kg for heavy deadlifts. http://www.liftinglarge.com/The-No-Dead ... _51-1.html

Dropping the load down to 40-60% for Dynamic Deadlifts. However, that does NOT produce anywhere close to the amount of power output Olympic pulls do.

Thus, I agree with...


Contreras...Heavy Swings A Permanent Replacement for Dynamic Effort Deadlifts?

After performing heavy swings for a solid month, I no longer see any need to perform dynamic effort deadlifts. The heavy swing is a superior movement in my opinion.

First, you get more hip range of motion. Second, the double overhand grip provides a great challenge to the grip. And third, there's a greater acceleration phase with the swing as it's really a ballistic movement; by law the dynamic deadlift must decelerate to come to a halt
.


Replacing Olympic lifts

I disagree with...


Contreras: I like the heavy swing better than the Olympic lifts and jump squats for football players –

I agree with...

Contreras: ...it's simpler to teach and easier on the joints. Down the road I'd like to see college football and NFL teams taking heavy swings seriously

Hungarian Core Blaster

As I stated, I use this movement. I went to Lowe's and paid less $20 for the pipe to make mine.

It cheap, you can increase or decrease the weight and it works great.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:01 pm 
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t-nation is blocked on my network. Could someone send me something about Hungarian core blaster?

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:04 am 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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I'm not so sure there's much surprising there. Heavy weights are more effective than light weights?

I think you would see the same for any exercise.

I'm at a loss, though. I have never came across kettlebells over 24KG. I've done swings for high reps with a 50KG DB, though, which is the heaviest i've had access to so I guess I probably can't comment much. I've done swings with two 24KG kettlebells. I also wouldn't invest in one heavy kettlebell. When you get stronger it essentially becomes a waste of money.

I use swings a lot for conditioning. I love any kind of hip hinge. Again I just don't have access to heavy enough kettlebells to run with this idea.

I agree that people who can swing correctly can also deadlift correctly. It's all the same thing - a hip hinge. However i've found it easier to teach people basic deadlift technique first, THEN teach swings, rather than teach swings THEN teach deadlift.

I would actually argue that if you can't deadlift correctly, you won't swing correctly. But this could be a chicken and egg situation, really, and can depend largely on your approach to training people.

I don't like the squat swing, which is what you see the masses who have been brainwashed by the kettlebell fad doing most of the time. BTW, I really like kettlebells, and I love a lot of the traditional kettlebell movements, I just don't think they are a be all and end all (big fad in my gym right now, hence the slight rant).

I also believe deadlifts can be trained regularly without being overly taxing if programmed and performed right. Frequent, heavy, rounded back deadlifts will definitely "take more than they give back", though, but that's not what I recommend.

I have had a lot of good progress with dynamic effort deadlifts, though. I like DE deadlifts for increasing deadlift due to specificity, too, which you don't get as much with swings (if the goal is a bigger deadlift). I like the opportunity via speed work to master technique with a lighter weight. If I have a deadlifter slow off the floor, I can normally get them stronger with one 4-week wave of speed deadlifts (quite often i'll program it from a deficit, too). It's been my first port of call for this problem for years now because it works time and time again. I also make people grip with double over hand until the weight gets heavy, meaning when they do DE deadlifts, they grip double over hand because it's a light weight, but normally with more weight than you would kettlebell swing, so I can throw the grip point right back in that case. I would say having to bring the bar to a halt in a DE deadlift, for the purpose of increasing ones deadlift, is a PRO and not a con of DE deadlifts. This really comes down to why you are doing what you are doing, though.

I just think swings are a ballistic deadlift. I love them and use them a lot (with DB's, though), just not for the same reasons. I also love DE deadlift for specific situations. I don't think one needs to throw out the other.

"swings and slams" are one of my go-to conditioners. 15 swings, 15 (med ball) slams, repeat until you hate you life.

The "swings vs DE deadlift" issue reminds of "Dimmel deadlifts" which is like almost like a ballistic RDL.

Good food for thought...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:36 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
t-nation is blocked on my network. Could someone send me something about Hungarian core blaster?

Thanks!


It's just a T handle you can load with stacked plates and do kettlebell type exercises with.

http://bit.ly/SlARwk

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:47 am 
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KPj wrote:
...
I'm at a loss, though. I have never came across kettlebells over 24KG. I've done swings for high reps with a 50KG DB, though, which is the heaviest i've had access to so I guess I probably can't comment much. I've done swings with two 24KG kettlebells. I also wouldn't invest in one heavy kettlebell. When you get stronger it essentially becomes a waste of money.

...


I regularly see KBs up to 32 KG and at that weight, swings are much different than 24KG. It's an ideal size for Turkish Getups and even farmers walks are fun at that size, although not very challenging guys like Jason Nunn. Bret Contraras has his own studio so a 200lb KB is a marketing tool for him. I doubt many of his client swing it yet. Most might do deadlifts with it.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Deific Wizard of Sagacity
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there's probably an advantage to the swing not having such a eccentric portion as a deadlift too


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:55 am 
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Powerlifting Ninja
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I also wouldn't invest in one heavy kettlebell. When you get stronger it essentially becomes a waste of money.

I agree. It gets expensive.

That is what I love about the Hungarian Core Blaster. $20 to make it then some weight plates.


I love any kind of hip hinge.

NSCA research shows the hip hinge movement in the kettlebell swing carries over to squats. Thus, it is a great auxilary squat exercise.

Again I just don't have access to heavy enough kettlebells to run with this idea.

The Hungarian Core Blaster is what you want.

I agree that people who can swing correctly can also deadlift correctly. It's all the same thing - a hip hinge. However i've found it easier to teach people basic deadlift technique first, THEN teach swings, rather than teach swings THEN teach deadlift.

I am a proponent of using the kettlebell swing to teach the deadlift.

I would actually argue that if you can't deadlift correctly, you won't swing correctly.

Great point.

I don't like the squat swing...

Quad, Glute, Ham Blast

I like this movement. I find it really blast the quads, glutes and hamstrings.

It is an effective method of training the stretch reflex in the squat.

Eccentric Loading

The eccentric drop of the kettlebell back between the legs, preload the stretch reflex.

Force = Mass X Acceleration

Due to the kettlebell dropping a greater amount of force is developed in the "hole" in the squat position.



BTW, I really like kettlebells, and I love a lot of the traditional kettlebell movements, I just don't think they are a be all and end all (big fad in my gym right now, hence the slight rant).

Kettlebells are a great training tool. However, the only movement I use are the Swing and the Halo movements.

The Flavor of the Month

I agree that kettlebells are the flavor of the month right now. People who want to be cool use them and then tell you they use them.


I also believe deadlifts can be trained regularly without being overly taxing if programmed and performed right. Frequent, heavy, rounded back deadlifts will definitely "take more than they give back", though, but that's not what I recommend.

INfrequent Deadlift Sessions

I am not an advocate of training the deadlift too often. About once every 7-14 days works. For some once every 21 days.


I would say having to bring the bar to a halt in a DE deadlift, for the purpose of increasing ones deadlift, is a PRO and not a con of DE deadlifts. This really comes down to why you are doing what you are doing, though.

Isometric Ballistic

Dynamic Effort Deadlifts are a version of what Verkhoshansky's termed "Isometric Ballistic" Training.

Defining Ballistic

Ballistic meaning a body or object becomes airborn.

Ballistic Objective

However, the objective with Dyanmic Effort Deadlifts is to go ballistic. That meaning you should try and jump with the bar.

Squat and Bench Press

That is also the objective with Dynamic work with these movements. You want to try and jump with the bar in the squat and to throw the bar up in the bench press.

"Hatfield's Compensatory Acceleration"

Going ballistic or trying to is what Compensatory Acceleration is about.

Putting On The Brakes

Research shows in these movements, only part of the movement is devoted to acceleration. The majority of the movement is devoted to descelerating the bar.

Learning to Descelerating the bar is NOT a good idea.

Variable Resistance Deadlifts

As you know, attaching bands and/or chains allows you to continue to accelerate through the entire range of the movement. It teaches you keep pushing/pulling.

Explosive, Reactive, Ballistic Deadlifts

As per Verkhoshansky's definition, a movement is similar to performing a deadlift from a paused postion.

However, instead of pausing, you bounce the weight off the floor. This type of deadlift would provide some stretch reflex training.

It would allow you to use a greater load, as well.

It different not necessarily better than the paused deadlift.

Hatfield and Charles Staley

I am not the only one to see value in bouncing the deadlift. Hatfield addresses it in Power: A Scientific Approach and Staley in "Bouncing Stiff Legged Deadlifts"
http://www.criticalbench.com/bouncing_s ... adlift.htm

I just think swings are a ballistic deadlift. I love them and use them a lot (with DB's, though), just not for the same reasons. I also love DE deadlift for specific situations. I don't think one needs to throw out the other.

Swings = Ballistic Deadlifts

I would agree. The swing falls into the Ballistic Deadlift catagory.

Descending Kettlebell Strength Curve

It not likely anyone is going to go airborn with the kettlebell or their body with a Kettlebell swing.

That because the Kettlebell Swing has a Descending Strength Curve. That meaning, the higher you pull it the less force you produce.

In other words, the higher you pull it the harder it get.

Ascending Deadlift Strength Curve

The Deadlift (Squat and Bench Press) have an Ascending Strength Curve. That meaning the higher you move the bar, the more force you produce.

That meaning the higher it goes the easier it is to lift.

Kenny Croxdale

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