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 Post subject: There must be a study!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:23 pm 
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One of the common questions that comes up here is something like, "Please direct me to the studies that prove that _____ is the best or most effective exercise," or something to that effect. It's as if they think, "there must be studies about this, and the people on EXRX must know where they are, even though my own research can't find any." A recent example started out like this:

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Louie Simmons mentioned somewhere that he often does light weight for a ton of reps (sometimes hundreds) in order to increase blood circulation in the selected area and improve healing of muscles and tendons (for example, he would do long sessions with indian clubs to rehab/prehab his shoulders). I still haven't found any study backing that.

Does somebody has resources on this potentially very important subject?

After a couple of people said that no, they didn't know of any such studies (I personally have MedLine memorized, so I can say for sure that there aren't any!) the OP said:
[quot]Don't you think it would be interesting to find out the optimal rep range/time length/intensity for recovery? I'm all for following what seems to give good results among top athletes, but studies can give additional insight.[/quote]
Yes, studies CAN give additional insight, but often they don't. A badly-done (i.e., the majority) study is worse than no study. Many studies in exercise science are very small, and provide very little statistical power. The truth is that studies often are not practical or even possible in the real world.

Many studies, like the one the OP proposed, are very impractical. Think about the question implied in his suggestion: Does light exercise involving and injured part, done shortly after the injury, speed healing compared to rest? I think that's what he was asking, at any rate.

Let's think about what it would take to do the study. For us to keep it simple here, let's just study light exercise (3 sets of 30 reps at 30% 1RM). If you want to study a range of each variables, the complexity mounts fast. If you want to study 3 rep ranges (say 10, 30 and 50 reps), 3 time periods (2 days, 5 days, 10 days), and 3 intensities (20%, 35% and 50% of 1RM), you'd need you'd need 28 study groups (3 cubed plus a control group).

First, you would have to decide who is the study population? Young, trained athletes? (This is common, since many studies are done at universities, and the sports teams are a popular source for subjects.) Young untrained exercisers? Sedentary middle aged new trainees? The elderly? It's an important question, because it would affect how the study is conducted, and it could affect the outcome. Just because something works in young athletes doesn't prove that it works for everyone. It would also determine where and how you would recruit the subjects.

Let's do a hypothetical study. I'd think (without remembering my undergraduate statistics) that you would need to study several hundred injuries in order to have a valid, powerful study. For our study, let's shoot for 100 injuries treated with light exercise, and 100 treated with rest, the control group. We'll need 200 injuries, and randomly assign them to either of the two protocols. That's just for our simple study. If you want to do all the variables, you'd need a good number in each of your different study groups, so that would multiply everything I'm going to suggest! If you still want to have 100 per group, that's 2800 injuries! If you only had 20 per group, you'd still need 560 injuries. Many studies that we see use even smaller groups than this, so even if you had 10 per group, you'd need 280. I doubt that would give much statistical power.

Second, what kind of injuries are we going to study? Obviously, we aren't proposing that we treat compound fractures with light exercise, are we? So, what then? Muscle strains? Sprains (ligament injuries)? Would a rotator cuff tear be included? Would a hamstring strain? Tendon avulsions? We'll have to define things in advance.

Third, how many subjects would you need? You'd have to think about how frequently injuries occur in your study population. If we're studying young trained athletes, and we find out from other studies that there are about 2 of whatever type of injury we've decided to study per 100 athletes per year, then we'll have to recruit 10,000 young trained athletes for a year's time, 20,000 if we expect to complete the study in 6 months. Whoh! That means that we'll have to involve colleagues in many universities to collaborate in the study. People from all those universities will have to travel to a central meeting point to plan, and later to evaluate the study. Everyone involved in doing the study would have to be trained, so that injuries could be evaluated and defined consistently. We'll have to have ways to make sure that all the athletes in the population report all of their injuries. And remember, that is just for the exercise-no exercise version of the study.

Maybe we should study old, sedate people, in whom the injury of interest occurs 10 times per 100 trainees per year. Then we'd only need 2,000 subjects to follow for a year, 4,000 for 6 months. We could contact dozens of community centers where they have senior exercise programs. Our staff members would have to visit each site to make sure that the staff there understands the study, and how to document the injuries of the subjects. They'd probably have to go back from time to time to keep the local staff up-to-date.

Fourth, how are we going to fund the study? There will be travel costs, staff time entering data, and compiling reports. If some of us are professional researchers, there will have to be funds to contribute to our salaries. We'd have to have insurance, including liability insurance in case a subject felt that they suffered permanent harm because of how they were treated following their injuries ("Your honor, it is common knowledge that light high-repetition exercise is vastly superior to inactivity after this kind of injury, but yet these researchers callously convinced my poor client to just sit around for a week after the injury, and now he can't move at all.") So, who is going to pay for the study? Either a government or other non-profit agency, or else someone who stands to make money as a result of a particular outcome. Grants from the non-profit sources tend to be small, and are usually only given for studies that are judged to be of great value to the public. I can't think of anyone from the second category who would be interested in this study. So we probably aren't going to be funded, and there will be no study, and we'll have to go on relying on Louie Simmons, Mark Rippetoe and KennyC.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:29 am 
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personally I think the obsession with studies is rank. I mean athletes have always been so far ahead of the curve (Vince Gironda was preaching low carb diets in the 60s...) that I can't understand why people don't just copy what the top athletes they are trying to emulate do.

Waiting around for studies is just procrastination.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:45 am 
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To be frank I'm also a huge proponent of evidence-based training. I regularly search for studies to prove something that's been bothering me, or something I believe in. The main reason I do this is because there are lot of broscience and false knowledge everywhere. Studies would usually help me prove something instead of just saying that this is a fact.

BUT, like you said, there is also plenty of BAD science being practiced each and every single day. Is the poorly performed research any closer to truth? Nah. The other problem I have noticed is that some subjects (especially in nutrition) have studies that give very inconclusive or very contradicting results. The one study says this, the other says "maybe not", and the third might say "not even close." Science is not easy.

But then again, there are things especially in human biology and physiology that can always be citated from scientific articles and studies. That eases the burden a little. There still is always something more comfortable in saying that I read a study, rather than I read some Charles Poliquin article that stated thing X.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:34 am 
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Dub wrote:
I regularly search for studies to prove something that's been bothering me, or something I believe in.


why don't you just try it, and if it works, keep doing it?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:43 am 
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robertscott wrote:
Dub wrote:
I regularly search for studies to prove something that's been bothering me, or something I believe in.


why don't you just try it, and if it works, keep doing it?

Usually there's the problem that something is quite hard to measure, especially if we are thinking about the effect of one thing. Secondly, what works for me, might not work for you.

But yeah, I've been doing that alot, but usually I want science before that, because these methods take time and quite oftenly money, and there's none to waste. You have a point there, and I've been trying things out myself, including creatine and glutamine supplementation, fasting, soft-tissue work, different training structures and methods etc. I have found my groove by doing these things.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:11 am 
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yeah I mean I'm not trying to discount the value of studies, but I think a much more sensible way of doing it is just to hear a recommendation from a coach you respect, implement the idea for a little while then see what you've learned.

For example:

IF taught me that I don't need to eat 6 small meals a day, and that my muscles won't shrivel up to nothing if I don't eat breakfast

CBL has taught me that I can lean out a bit by keeping my carbs around the workout despite keeping my calories about the same

... and so on...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:06 am 
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For one person to try something and see if it works is fine for many things. Problem is that there are so many variables involved in many matters that the experience of one person can easily be due to randomness or to factors that are hard to identify. A study is basically a whole bunch of people trying it, and seeing if it works for most of them. Way better. So a well-don't study, involving a large-enough study group can be vary valuable. Small studies that don't control for all the variables, or don't in poorly-selected subjects are worse than just trying it for yourself.

Hopefully if you try something dumb yourself, when it doesn't work you will admit it and move on to something else. When a study does something dumb, it can be passed on as proven fact, and lots and lots of people persist in doing it, not accepting the possibility that it's dumb.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:56 am 
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I should point out that I'm pro-study when it comes to health supplements. For example, I've never felt fish oil working but I have seen enough scientific evidence to know that it does.

When it comes to more practical things like nutrient timing or whatever though I reckon self-experimentation still reigns supreme


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:15 am 
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Nice rant :salute:

I'm not pro study nor am I anti-study. It doesn't need to be one or the other.

I think people just like extremes, too. Something either is or it isn't effective. People don't like to hear, "for who? And when? and why?". They just want, "this is best, that is wrong, this is right". I think people like black and white, no grey area, and the human body is far more complex than that.

People seem to have this belief that one study may tell us the whole story but it would take a collection just to prove one point of a big picture.

Most of the research into training is at such an early stage, too. It's difficult to find any training related research that isn't done on untrained subjects, too, which is a big problem, because we all know almost anything works for a newbie.

This makes it exciting, though, because there is so much more to learn.

I see the point, though. Especially on the internet, you can't say much now without being called out for the science proving it. Non-sciencey people asking non-sciencey people to prove their point with science. It can get quite ridiculous.

I like "real science" and i've always liked bro-science, too. I'm not sure why bro-science gets such a bad rap to be honest.

KPj

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:22 pm 
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KPj wrote:
I'm not sure why bro-science gets such a bad rap to be honest.

KPj


me neither, I mean, back in the glory days everything coaches like Gironda did could be considered broscience. It worked though...


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