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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Being 65 and getting different openions on rest periods between sets depending on which site I go to is a bit cornfusing. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Frank


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Frank, we haven't seen you in a while.

Rest periods depend on your goal. Bodybuilders like short rest periods so that fatique accumulates and makes the muscle bigger. There is a also a cardio benefit from very short rest periods. For strength and power, which should be the main priority of us youthfully challenged folk, rests of several minutes between sets may be more appropriate.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Hi Stu,

I usually rest about a minute, but if I should have to rest several minutes the workout will last forever unless I drop some of the accessories exercises like curls, lateral and side raises, rotator cuff, flys etc.

Caught a bug that lasted 4 months and thats long after I stoped drinking beer! Have to start over again. Love it.

Frank


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:41 pm 
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Your accessory lifts could be done with quick rest periods but for your big compound movements you should rest longer between sets.

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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:31 pm 
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I think it's sometimes worth it to sacrifice the number of exercises in order to take longer rests. I rarely time my rests, just lift the next set when I feel I'm ready. I agree with Stu about shorter rests on accessories--I just rarely remember to pay attention.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:33 pm 
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At my age I'm wondering if accessories are even necessary. Like curls, am I not getting that action (or enough) with lat pulls and rowing? Are flys necessary after doing bp, and side laterals after doing the shoulder press? Or, maybe at my young/tender/studly age I need to do accessories with short rest periods to just be more physically fit. I feel like I'm slacking if I dont do them. Thanks,

Frank


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Do them if you want! If you feel that they are helping you in some way, go ahead. On the other hand, don't feel that you HAVE to do them if you don't think they are adding value.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:26 pm 
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take them out for a few months
See if you enjoy and progress more on your main lifts
Maybe the addtional energy / less time will envigorate you.
Maybe the loss of certain accessory wrok will show up in lower press numbers, or slower progression.
Maybe add soem back, but not all.

what is you goal ?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:47 am 
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I guess my goal is what Stu said, strength and power. I work out upper, skip a day, then lower etc. and hit everything twice per week. What hurts me the most is not being able to do squats because of a bad back.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:41 am 
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anzafrank wrote:
I guess my goal is what Stu said, strength and power. I work out upper, skip a day, then lower etc. and hit everything twice per week. What hurts me the most is not being able to do squats because of a bad back.


Strength & Power Rest Periods

As Stu stated, for strength and power training longer rest periods are necessary.

ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate)

ATP is the "gas" for strength, power and speed movements.

It is quickly burned up. I approximately 30 seconds on heavy strength sets, explosive power sets and sprint speed movement it is depleted.

Within 10 seconds, ATP the majority of ATP is burned up. Thus, you strenth, power and speed hit the wall after 10 seconds. You are toast in 30 seconds.

Restoration of ATP

50% of ATP is restored to the muscles in 30%.

However, it take over 3 minutes for ATP to be fully reloaded back into the muscle cells.

Your 60 Second Rest Periods

Around 70-80% of your ATP will be restored in 60 seconds.

Running On Out of Gas

Think of strength, power and speed movement like taking a trip. To get to your destination, you need to fill your tank up.

Let's say your tank takes 15 gallons. It is what you need to get to where you are going.

However, instead you put 12 gallons in your tank (80% of 15 gallons).

You're not going to make it to you destination.

That same thing applies with strength, power and speed training.

Your destination in the case is pushing the heaviest load, using the highest load in a powr movement and/or sprinting with the greatest speed.

That not going to happen if your haven't filled up.

Auxiliary Exercises

As you noted, these aren't necessary. The smallest muscle group and most overloaded in a lat pulldown is the biceps. That means they get enough work.

It is the same with most auxiliary exercise for the smaller muscle groups, again as you noted.

Squatting Solution

There are Squat Exericses that take the lower back out of the equation.

1) Step Ups
http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadric ... tepUp.html

This allows you to minimize the lower back invovement and overload the legs.

Performing them with dumbbells rather than a barbell on your shoulder places less stress on the lower back.

Holding a dumbbell step on a box and then step down.

2) Lunges
http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/DBLunge.html

Bascially the same thing as a Step Up. I am not a fan of them nor do I promote them.

3) Belt Squats
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PldcPTOACm4

This is one of the best bilateral squat movement there is.

Hitting Everything Twice A Week

I am not a big fan of heavy strength training everything twice a week.

However, without knowing more about what you do, I can't say.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:51 am 
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Kenny C. What about Creatine Phosphate? It's one of the driving fuels behind maximal force production and runs out under the first minute, and roughly needs 3-5 minutes at least to recover.
And why no Lunges? Just a personal prefrence, or something deeper?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Dub wrote:
Kenny C. What about Creatine Phosphate? It's one of the driving fuels behind maximal force production and runs out under the first minute, and roughly needs 3-5 minutes at least to recover.


Creatine Phosphate

Creatine phosphate is basically the major building block for ATP. Creatine phosphate regenerates APT.

So yes, it is the driving fuel for ATP.

Fast Twitch (Type II A) and Super Fast Twitch (Type II B/II X) Muscle Fiber

These fiber are like shooting stars. You are able to produce force, power and speed quickly.

However, like a shooting star they burn out quickly. Part of that has to do with ATP.

Quote:
And why no Lunges? Just a personal prefrence, or something deeper?


Personal Preference

I personally hate them. I have a long torso and find when I do them I tend to bend forward and use my back more than I should.

However, I realize that just

Shear Knee Force

Secondly, the problem most individual have is when they step forward, they dive their knee forward beyond their toes.

When the knee is drive that far forward it places a lot of shear force on the knees, which is not a good thing.

While you can do the same with Step Up, you don't drive your knee forward as much or if you do it not to the same extent you do with a lunge.

The Lunge Solution

To insure that you don't drive you knee forward in a lunge, Step Backward.

Rear Lunge[/b]
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Qua ... Lunge.html

I should have listed this in the previous post.

As you can see, the Rear Lunge insures that you shin remains more in a 90% degree angle/perpendicular to the floor. That means the knee remains in a neutral position and is not driven forward.

[b]My Criticim


My criticism of this exrx Rear Lunge video is that she even when stepping back she is driving the knee forward a little.

To correct that and insure the shin remains perpendicular to the floor, she need to step back a little further.

Dumbbell Vs Barbell Lunge

The Barbell Lunge places some loading on the lower back, especially when you lean forward. In a Step Up or Lunge with will be some or a long of foward lean.

The Dumbbell Lunge loading on the lower back is minimimal, much less than with a Barbell Lunge.

That a Dumbbell Step Up or Lunge place more of the load on the legs and less on the lower back.

Depth

The greater the height of the box that you step up on or the lower you go in the lunge, the greater the involvement of the hamstrings.

The hamstrings are heavily activated in getting you out of the hole in a squat. Thus, the lower you squat/lunge, the more the hamstrings are involved.

Kenny Croxdale

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:47 pm 
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Location: Anza, So. Calif. Mountains
Also, if I do straight rowing and lat pull downs, then I don't really need to do curls. Right? With that way of thinking, if I do bench and shoulder press, I don't see why I would have to do tries on top of that either especially when doing bp and sp my tris get hammered, and sence I'm doing the sp, could I skip doing lateral raises also? I'm starting to get lazy just writing this. Ha! Am I missing something here? Also Stu, are you still hitting everything 3 times per week? I get much weaker doing 3, stronger with 2 and stronger yet with once it seems. Thanks,

Frank


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Frank, Right now I'm going to the gym twice a week. I'll do a full body workout each time.

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Stu Ward
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Let thy food be thy medicine, and thy medicine be thy food.~Hippocrates
Strength is the adaptation that leads to all other adaptations that you really care about - Charles Staley
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Thanks TimD


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:39 am 
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anzafrank wrote:
Am I missing something here?

No, you're not. You have the concept. Some people (like body builders) may want to give even more work to certain muscles. Some people may want to give some work to "weak links" that they feel are limiting the compound movements, but most of us get a lot of good out of the compounds without doing more.

Another function of accessories is to give a different kind of stimulus to the compound movements. So you may do your primary benching on one day, but on another do light weights for very high reps, or do speed movements for power development.

I'm currently working a cycle that goes 10 or 11 days, with 4 workouts. I'm doing a squat-type movement and a DL-type movement once each heavy and once each light during that time. I'm doing upper-body movement fairly heavy twice in that time. That's what I think works best for me.

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