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 Post subject: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:10 am 
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Well, I finally did it, gave myself the Self Movement Screen. I've had the book for almost a year, but have had lots of "good" excuses not to do the SMS. Most of them seem funny now. I know that the FMS has a few more and maybe slightly different tests, but the SMS is appropriate for guys like me screening themselves. But some of you may have done the full FMS, so I wanted to open it up to discussion both ways.

My excuses:
I have ABinB only on Kindle, and it would be easier to use a print book while doing the test.
I don't have suitable doorways (this is actually true, but was easily adapted/overcome).
The tests seem so simple that anybody can pass them.
I don't have any masking tape (turns out that electrical tape works just fine).

How I did:

Deep Squat -------- pass
Hurdle step ---- pass L, fail R
In Line Lunge --- fail L, fail R
ASLR ---------- fail L, fail R
Seated Rotation - fail L, fail R

So much for "so simple that anyone could pass them"!!!

I have a few uncertainties about how I set up for the tests. My doorways are all fairly narrow, and the walls are thinner than in American houses, and all of them have a door set into them, no open doorways, so I wasn't sure if the dimensions would make a difference.

On the In Line Lunge, I was unsure about the position of the tape on the floor. Is the center of the tape supposed to be lined up with the center of each door jamb? This one really felt like an impossible movement to me. By the time I was near the bottom of the movement the dowel was firmly touching both door jambs, and I felt like I was bending backwards to try to avoid it. I just didn't think that, given the dimensions of my body, and the geometry of the door way that I could possibly get to the bottom without the dowel touching.

Cook recommends that you give priority to the movements you have the most difficulty with, and priority to asymmetries. I guess I had the most difficulty with the 3 tests that I failed bilaterally, and 1 that was asymmetric.

So, where do I start?

I know that KPj and robertscott have done the screens. Anyone else? What is your experience with them?

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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:13 am 
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I've read Cook's Book "Movement - Functional Movement Systems", and I have used the FMS tests to Hockey Goalies and Personal Training clients. I personally like this test a lot, it is just more challenging to read it when compared to more accurately measured mobility or stability tests.
You should do the FMS test and film your form. This talk about some doorways and difficult set-ups is not a problem in the official Functional Movement Screening, but that takes a trainer as a seeing eye, since all movement dysfunctions should be visible.

For corrections, start from asymmetries, and from the most simple, "primitive" and basic movement patternes, which are the leg raise and shouler rotation. Then move up from there. Always asymmetries and most basic. Mobility before stability is also one rule to note when correcting anything. Add corrective exercises to your warm-up. Simple, yet effective.

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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:21 am 
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Thanks for the report doc, I've asked Mrs. Claus for this one.


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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:20 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
I have a few uncertainties about how I set up for the tests. My doorways are all fairly narrow, and the walls are thinner than in American houses, and all of them have a door set into them, no open doorways, so I wasn't sure if the dimensions would make a difference.


I based my original movement screen i used with clients on the SMS, just with a few others added in.

The only test I used the door way on was Hurdle Step and Seated Rotation, so it can definitely be adapted. Being able to see yourself on video will help loads - I have the advantage of watching rather than performing when i'm doing these tests, so less need for a door way.

Jungledoc wrote:
On the In Line Lunge, I was unsure about the position of the tape on the floor. Is the center of the tape supposed to be lined up with the center of each door jamb? This one really felt like an impossible movement to me. By the time I was near the bottom of the movement the dowel was firmly touching both door jambs, and I felt like I was bending backwards to try to avoid it. I just didn't think that, given the dimensions of my body, and the geometry of the door way that I could possibly get to the bottom without the dowel touching.


This is one I never used a door way for, I can't remember exactly what ABIB says about the set up.

However, just give it a try outside of doorway. It's possible especially considering your location that your door ways are a lot more restricted! Anyway, this is like a lunge on a tight rope. Actually in the FMS you do it standing on a 2x6 board, the "Inline" part just means your rear foot toe is right behind your front foot heel. When you lower down your knee should drop right behind the heel.

In FMS you hold the dowel behind you vertically and trying to ensure 3 points of contact (hips, upper back and head), try this as an alternative set up.

This is very underestimated. Many people can't even get into the starting position, with both feet in line, one in front of the other, both feet flat on the ground, and the stick/dowel in against the spine. I even have a modified version for new members who I know will do horribly (as i don't want to embarrass them).

Jungledoc wrote:
So, where do I start?


The FMS gives a sort of algorithm for this. The SMS is more simplified and subjective. In FMS you start with Shoulder Mobility and ASLR. Deep Squat is the last to get addressed directly. Since seated rotation relates to shoulder mobility, I would recommend you start here.

You're supposed to prioritise asymmetry which in your case would obviously be Hurdle Step. This is because asymmetry is the second biggest predictor of future injury ("previous injury" being the first).

It's generally recommended you go after one pattern at a time. However, it's also recommended that if one pattern is more mobility than stability (i.e seated rotation), then you can go after that, too. So, regardless of which other pattern you went after, I would definitely work on seated rotation.

You should see progress on a pattern in a couple of weeks providing you do enough home work. So if you get this right you should know instantly. You should actually feel an improvement in movement quality right after the correctives, IF you are in the right place (doing the right thing). The real challenge is making the changes stick.

So, if all is as it seems, you should go after hurdle step and seated rotation. However...

I screen with the FMS (worth saying i'm self taught so far). This is scored (0-3) rather than pass or fail so it's much easier to score an asymmetry. Just based on my own experience, I would bet that with an asymmetry on Hurdle Step, you'll have an asymmetry on ASLR, too - although it's not noted because both are "fail".

So I would look at that again and see if there's a blatant difference side to side. If so then I would go for ASLR with Seated Rotation because I suspect this would likely fix your Hurdle step, too.

My gut is screaming ASLR, basically. Especially because I know you've been having issues with deadlift (although don't know many details..). Also, ASLR is so over looked but it's such a crucial screen. I didn't give it it's true worth until the last year or so.

Based on that screen, btw, I wouldn't have you do heavy deadlifts and single leg work would be limited if at all. I wouldn't have you train heavy deadlifts until you passed ASLR and I would like your single leg patterns (Hurdle step and ILLunge) cleaned up before you started doing the likes of Bulgarian Split Squats or most lunge variations.

Quick note on seated rotation - thinner walls/doorways means you need more ROM so it could alter this for you. However, you should still be reasonable close and, most of all, was there a difference between sides?

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:00 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
Deep Squat -------- pass
Hurdle step ---- pass L, fail R
In Line Lunge --- fail L, fail R
ASLR ---------- fail L, fail R
Seated Rotation - fail L, fail R


ha! You suck as much as me!


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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:01 am 
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KPj wrote:
This is one I never used a door way for, I can't remember exactly what ABIB says about the set up.

However, just give it a try outside of doorway. It's possible especially considering your location that your door ways are a lot more restricted! Anyway, this is like a lunge on a tight rope. Actually in the FMS you do it standing on a 2x6 board, the "Inline" part just means your rear foot toe is right behind your front foot heel. When you lower down your knee should drop right behind the heel.

In FMS you hold the dowel behind you vertically and trying to ensure 3 points of contact (hips, upper back and head), try this as an alternative set up.

This is very underestimated. Many people can't even get into the starting position, with both feet in line, one in front of the other, both feet flat on the ground, and the stick/dowel in against the spine. I even have a modified version for new members who I know will do horribly (as i don't want to embarrass them).

That may help me out! The knee came down behind the front heel, but I couldn't get all the way down without the dowel touching the door frame. On FMS, what's the distance between the feet? In SMS it's the same as the height of the tibial tuberosity above the floor.
KPj wrote:
The FMS gives a sort of algorithm for this.

Yeah, ABIB does too. Sounds similar. Prioritize the test you do worst on, and further prioritize assymetry. The examples are like, "you pass everything except squat and ILL on the right--therefore work on ILL first." There are no examples where you fail most of them!
KPj wrote:
So, if all is as it seems, you should go after hurdle step and seated rotation. However...
...
My gut is screaming ASLR, basically.

I like your gut. I'm leaning that way. My ASLR looked fairly symmetric to me, from my vantage point on the floor. Maybe I'll make my wife watch me and see if she thinks there's a difference.

(Added a little later)My wife looked from across the room (she's sure she can see just fine) and says my right food comes back about 5 inches further than the left.

KPj wrote:
Especially because I know you've been having issues with deadlift (although don't know many details..). Also, ASLR is so over looked but it's such a crucial screen. I didn't give it it's true worth until the last year or so.
The main issue is that I think it's one of several things contributing to back soreness.
KPj wrote:
Based on that screen, btw, I wouldn't have you do heavy deadlifts and single leg work would be limited if at all. I wouldn't have you train heavy deadlifts until you passed ASLR and I would like your single leg patterns (Hurdle step and ILLunge) cleaned up before you started doing the likes of Bulgarian Split Squats or most lunge variations.
Yeah, I'm on board about the DLs. I've sadly put them aside for now. But I thought single-leg work would be good for me, so I've added step-down squats to my beloved Bulgarians. Now you want me to give them both up?

KPj wrote:
Quick note on seated rotation - thinner walls/doorways means you need more ROM so it could alter this for you. However, you should still be reasonable close and, most of all, was there a difference between sides?
It was far enough that I don't think a thicker door frame would have bailed me out.

So, I'm thinking that I'll work on correctives for ILL, leave DL out of my program, leave out Bulgarians and single leg squats. I gotta go back and read the correctives chapter in ABIB.

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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:04 am 
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KPj wrote:
Based on that screen, btw, I wouldn't have you do heavy deadlifts and single leg work would be limited if at all. I wouldn't have you train heavy deadlifts until you passed ASLR and I would like your single leg patterns (Hurdle step and ILLunge) cleaned up before you started doing the likes of Bulgarian Split Squats or most lunge variations.

KPj


what would you prescribe for leg training?


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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:34 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
That may help me out! The knee came down behind the front heel, but I couldn't get all the way down without the dowel touching the door frame. On FMS, what's the distance between the feet? In SMS it's the same as the height of the tibial tuberosity above the floor.


It's the same on FMS. This is create the most unstable base possible, basically. Narrow and close.

Jungledoc wrote:
There are no examples where you fail most of them!


SMS is a little more vague, and it's also a little older - the FMS crew are constantly tweaking things. Principles are the same but some minor details tend to change.

For it to make sense you need to think about primitive patterns and the order in which we learn them. So a child tends to explore eye, facial, head and limb movement (ASLR, shoulder mobility) first. They explore mobility first, then they begin to pattern stability as they roll and crawl, and this is where "rotary stability" (the next in the corrective algorithm) comes into it. Rotary Stability isn't in the SMS though, so don't let me add confusion. I'm just explaining that the order of correctives, assuming everything is failed, goes by the order of primitive development.

The idea is that we're "hard wired" in our brains to move like this. We do it without being taught. Obviously you won't see a toddler do, say, an ILL but, it's what the ILL represents that is key. I'm always amazed at the ease my niece and nephew can do high box step ups (hurdle step). Of course it's just a "step" in the house to me but for them, and the niece in particular, the knee is above the hip and she still makes it happen with a stable torso.

Jungledoc wrote:
I like your gut. I'm leaning that way. My ASLR looked fairly symmetric to me, from my vantage point on the floor. Maybe I'll make my wife watch me and see if she thinks there's a difference.

(Added a little later)My wife looked from across the room (she's sure she can see just fine) and says my right food comes back about 5 inches further than the left.


Based on this, I would choose ASLR and Seated Rotation. ASLR takes priority over HS. Also, cleaning up ASLR and Seated Rotation may clean up the other failed screens - this happens. It's amazing what happens when you clean up that first pattern! Finally, ASLR isn't just a hamstring length test, it's an appraisal of motor control and stability, too. Without that you can have the most flexible hamstrings in the world and fail. In failing HS you quite often have an issue with hip flexion and dominance of the lumbar erectors which can make lumbar flexion take over from hip flexion, causing a fail in the test. ASLR can clean this up. It might not. But it might! Depends on the issue.

Honestly sometimes I think ASLR fixes everything.

I see another question on single leg work so i'll make a separate post.

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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:20 am 
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robertscott wrote:
KPj wrote:
Based on that screen, btw, I wouldn't have you do heavy deadlifts and single leg work would be limited if at all. I wouldn't have you train heavy deadlifts until you passed ASLR and I would like your single leg patterns (Hurdle step and ILLunge) cleaned up before you started doing the likes of Bulgarian Split Squats or most lunge variations.

KPj


what would you prescribe for leg training?


Short answer - Squats!

The squat "pattern" was a pass, this means we have the squat pattern to play with when we need something to "train".

It's worth saying first that this is where FMS gets interesting and this is where a lot of healthy debates begin. The most important philosophy for FMS is that you actually "measure". So, you have a baseline - the first screen, and from that you create a plan (the plan is where people can differ), and going forward you re-screen. If the screen improves your doing the right thing, and that's the big bottom line. The correctives outlined, although they are recommended, are also just guidelines. Trainers who use it tend to put their own stamp on it. So, this is what I would do and why.

When HS and ILL are not passed then the bottom line is, your single leg pattern is dysfunctional. This is like having a "dysfunctional" bodyweight squat. If you can't bodyweight squat correctly, are you going to start training it heavy for strength? Of course not. You learn how to body weight squat correctly then you begin to strengthen it. Clean up the pattern, THEN strengthen it!

Now, you can train a pattern, and you can strengthen a pattern. If the pattern is dysfunctional, then you need to train to improve the pattern, and not to strengthen it. You need to make the car road worthy before you put it out on the track to race.

For lower body work, The Doc needs to train to improve his single leg pattern before he goes crazy and tries to add strength to it. As a general rule, when "adding" things to your program for a corrective purpose, you need to take other things away. Back discomfort has been noted and, it's very possible and quite likely that the single leg stuff he's been doing is adding to the problem. It's very easy to turn a lunge into a single leg good morning! Too easy to round your back in a single leg squat. I love all of these exercises. I love Bulgarians but some people just hang off the lower back doing them - too much forward lean. This makes sense as I type it because of the frustration noted with hitting the dowel off the door frame.

So, I would "train" squats but, I would most likely pick a variation which helped the over all goal. Like Box Squats where can groove the hip hinge. Or front squats where we emphasise anterior core. Both help the cause for different reasons.

For single leg work, I would have a bunch of correctives in the warm up. I would start right at the beginning, mastering the 90/90 split squat, from the bottom position, first as a stretch then as a static hold (lifting up a few inches and holding). Then for reps. Then I would consider step ups and reverse lunges a training option assuming the 90/90 position has been mastered. I would load it with a light DB on a goblet grip, not to strengthen it but to add feed back and help keep an upright torso. If all of this can be mastered on day 1 then these are an option from day 1. It's not set in stone. Here's a good video/post on the 90/90 position, I know Doc can't see you tube so i'll probably post about it again http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blo ... lit-squat/

90-90 is like the foundation for single leg work. If you get in to that position, get tall, spine neutral (including the neck/head), and squeezing the glutes hard, and find it very uncomfortable or quite unstable, then this is where you need to start.

I normally add in a hip-hinge of some kind for this kind of screen. It can depend, though. For some it'll be partial RDL's (to the knees) and for others it'll be a "dowel hip hinge" in the warm up.

It's important to note if you are on the right track you should see a pattern clean up in weeks, not months or years.

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:33 am 
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It's also worth noting that the FMS folks strongly believe that pain warrants a referral. Now, I don't always refer in the case of pain, I have my own criteria, but the premise is that pain alters motor control. Which means you may move a certain way because you are in pain, and not be in pain because you are moving a certain way. It can be misleading, in other words. Things that should otherwise help can just hurt because you're in pain, and things that make things worse can feel good because they lessen the pain (think of a flexion intolerant lower back being stretched into flexion and causing "relief").

"pain" is amazingly complicated.

Andy did you have any pain during any of the screens?

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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:37 am 
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so you're saying I can keep front squatting? Phew!


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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:55 am 
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robertscott wrote:
so you're saying I can keep front squatting? Phew!


Yes, your squat is good. The limiting factor in your Dowel Squat is ankles and shoulders, which is why your feet turn out and the dowel shoots forward, but you don't need a "3" to train the pattern, just a 2, which allows for compensation, as long as you achieve the required ROM.

KPj

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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:52 pm 
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KPj wrote:
Andy did you have any pain during any of the screens?

No. I had some of my usual on and off soreness at the time I did them, but nothing that came up during the screens.

What you said about pain causing impairment in the movement makes sense. I can't really say if my soreness limited the screens. Maybe I'll try to pick a time when I'm less sore, and try them again.

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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:46 am 
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So, reading ABIB, the section on ASLR doesn't seem very clearly-written.

First, on the leg-lowering progression, he says "At first, use a 6- to 8-inch block or step." But he doesn't say what to use it for! In the photo it looks like the girl is going to lower her heel to a box, but it's not clear. Later in the paragraph he says, "If you are straining, make it easier (increase box, chair, or bench height) and do more reps. Ok, what are the box, chair or bench for? A substitute for the "block or step" mentioned earlier? So basically, you're holding one leg straight up (which of course, I can't do, as demonstrated on the test originally) you lower the other leg down onto some rest while keeping the lumbar spine flat. Right? I can do that.

Next, he lists "Curl-Ups to Modified Curl-Ups". I think I get this, although he includes the phrase "Leave the shoulders back and curl up the spine...." I'm not sure you can do both of those at the same time. My main question, though, is what's the "modified" curl-up? He talks about doing it with the toes pointed out. Then he talks, in the same section, about what seems like a completely different exercise with one leg up on a door frame while raising and lowering the other leg. Is THIS the "modified" curl-up? It doesn't really seem like a curl-up to me, but sounds like the "leg-lowering progression with support" in the next section.

The next section is "Leg-Lowering Progression with Support." I understand how to do this, but it's not clear when to do it. Is it to be done if you can't do it without support? Or as an additional exercise?

Should I only do these on my usual lifting days, or would it be better to do them more often?

I'm just full of questions.

I've also decided to just work on ASLR for now.

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 Post subject: Re: FMS/SMS
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:54 am 
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Jungledoc wrote:
So basically, you're holding one leg straight up (which of course, I can't do, as demonstrated on the test originally) you lower the other leg down onto some rest while keeping the lumbar spine flat. Right? I can do that.


You've kinda got it. You use the wall to anchor one leg up. If you lift both legs up at the same time you'll see it's much easier to get the leg up there. You can also position yourself further away from the wall to lessen the angle of the UP leg. Then as you lower the free leg, you'll start to feel the UP leg as if it's being stretched. Lowering straight to the floor will probably be too much at first -creating a brutal stretch- so you put a step down and lower to that instead of the floor. As you get better, you reduce height of the step and get closer to the wall. Basically, you're trying to find a ROM that you can start from. Just practising the movement will free it up, as long as you do it properly, which in your case, you need to find the ROM you can that you work in.

This version works very well btw. I also like to use a band looped around the UP leg instead of using the wall - it's logistically a lot a easier in my gym, works just as well, and is a little less awkward for people to do as sometimes getting into position as described in ABIB can be troublesome.

Your basically doing the movement in reverse. It's similar logic to learning squats or lunges from the bottom up, rather than top down. You lower rather than raise. The step/wall/band/whatever is just to kind of cheat yourself into the right position.

Jungledoc wrote:
Next, he lists "Curl-Ups to Modified Curl-Ups". I think I get this, although he includes the phrase "Leave the shoulders back and curl up the spine...." I'm not sure you can do both of those at the same time. My main question, though, is what's the "modified" curl-up?


It's been a while since I read this book but, i think "curl up to modified curl up" IS the exercise. I don't think it's 2 separate ones. A traditional curl up as per McGill is different.

"shoulders back" is a cue to help flex from the thoracic rather than lumbar spine. Think of lifting the shoulder blades off the ground, but not pulling the shoulder blades forward. Or, lifting your chest towards the ceiling. If you let them wing forward you tend to see the head shoot way forward and the lumbar spine flex.

fwiw I've never used curl up variations. I've messed around with them but not used them with clients. I've got the job done using plank variations, dead bug variations, and leg lowering.

Jungledoc wrote:
Should I only do these on my usual lifting days, or would it be better to do them more often?


Frequency is king with the correctives. I tell people to do them every day - it's their "home work", plus it's in their warm up, and I quite often use them as "fillers", too. If you get the correctives right and use enough frequency, you should see some magic in one week. So you shouldn't have to try this for months then decide it hasn't worked or you were working on the wrong movements.

I try not to give people more than 2 things to do. In this case i'll give them leg lowering and some kind of plank or dead bug, depending what level they're at. Honestly though, I think just leg lowering does the job pretty nicely.

I do remember finding the correctives as laid out in ABIB quite confusing, i've kind of always put my own spin on it and this was part of the reason.

KPj

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